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Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

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Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#321

Post by 9point6 »

meredydd wrote: post #315
9point6 wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your use of "minimum" is wrong here. If you're using React running on Node and Webpack as your task-runner you just need Javascript and that's it. Node allows you to run isomorphic JavaScript that runs on both your server side and client side (to ensure you don't end up with the Angular-style skeleton pages coming from the server), You can pick a nice ORM (like sequelize) to abstract away SQL, and Webpack all…

I still count three frameworks :) (React, Node, sequelize, I'm not counting webpack but I probably would if it's anything like as much of a pain as Grunt or Gulp or... And as you say, this is the lightweight version.)

Ah I wouldn't count Node as a framework as I'd equate it to the JVM in Java world. But you are right, I'd probably lump webpack in there as it does have a fair bit of depth to it if you want to get the most out of it.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#322

Post by gaius »

arethuza wrote: post #302
gaius wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web was conceived for hypertext and doesn't do a bad job of it. The actual problem is that people took something that was always intended for displaying (illustrated but mainly text) documents that happened to have clickable words that would display other documents, and tried to make it do desktop-style applications too. We've been hammering square pegs into round holes ever since. And the infuriating thing is we…

NeWS was a lovely thing (and the HyperNeWS environment that was built on it is still one of all time favourite frameworks) but I'm not sure it was directly comparable with HTML+JS+AJAX - it was more like an attempt to do a better X11. Specifically I don't remember (even, ironically given its name, in HyperNews) there being much support for working with documents or hyperlinks. Mind you - it did do the client side scr…

They are all variants on the cross-platform thin-client theme. The HTML+JS+AJAX conglomeration has certainly more in common with NeWS than it does with the web I remember in 1994, which was a solution to the problem of sharing and cross referencing scientific papers and similar documents.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#324

Post by Retra »

totalcrepe wrote: post #265
nivertech wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was building GUIs in pure Win32, with my own C++ wrapper classes for Win32 and later with OWL and MFC. I'd say building Win32 GUIs in C++ was easier than current Web stack. Same with Java AWT and Swing libraries. Objective C / Cocoa is more complex - never really managed to learn it beyond basic stuff, maybe with Swift it's easier. Elm is close to those desktop GUI frameworks, but functional instead of OO. But Tcl/…

But none of your examples are as cross system portable and "native/normal feel" as writing an app that only works in chrome/chromium. For the decades leading up to this stage cross system GUIs with a few simple library dependencies have been an unachieved "easy" task. Web remains as frustrating as ever because now we need it to work on all non portable browsers even on platforms that supports better ones. Then we wan…

They could be made portable if an equivalent amount of effort was spent devoted to that goal.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#325

Post by toddan »

This is why i find it so much fun to do applications on windows with .net you only need to know one language C# or VB.net and then you are set. You can create anything with just this, of course it will only work on windows but i dont mind, it just such a pleasure to only have one toolset and then just focus on the task at hand.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#326

Post by totalcrepe »

douche wrote: post #284
totalcrepe wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But none of your examples are as cross system portable and "native/normal feel" as writing an app that only works in chrome/chromium. For the decades leading up to this stage cross system GUIs with a few simple library dependencies have been an unachieved "easy" task. Web remains as frustrating as ever because now we need it to work on all non portable browsers even on platforms that supports better ones. Then we wan…

Why is native/normal feel the end-all-be-all of UI systems? I've never quite understood why this is so desirable. Or why the answer seems to be using a shoddy UI system stuffed in a browser frame.

I think writing an IDE or anything else with editor integration during the editor wars would be a similar analogy:

- you could push one or the other

- you could try to support users on both side based on the editor variable

- you could go the new route where only users who care enough to invest do

- you could go the Jed simplicity route.

In the end, IDEs like jetbrains have the new route with plugins for the factions. Most lower investment cases do the Jed route which is more like web neutral. No one who pushed the unwanted editor on its opposing group seems to be still standing.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#327

Post by meshko »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #230
meshko wrote: post #37

It is scary how most commenters here are missing the point. No, not all programming sucks. Yes, web programming sucks more than other things. No, it doesn't have to be like this. Yes, even web programming was better 10 years ago. No, I don't know how to fix it. Neither do I know exactly where we took the wrong turn. One of my theories is this: had Sun not sued Microsoft over their extensions in JVM, MS would have kep…

> Java, being a significantly superior language to ActionScript ActionScript 3 was all right. A bit too listener-heavy but a mature, reliable, comprehensible language, and arguably lighter and more approachable than Java. Had Microsoft (among others) not nobbled it back in 2008, we might be using it as the next generation of JavaScript (ES4) by now.

ActionScript was all right, I don't disagree. Especially compared to JavaScript. But i think it would have been nice to have the same language on FE and BE.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#328

Post by unclebucknasty »

Damn. If I didn't know better, I'd have thought I'd written this myself while in an Ambien-induced fugue state.

This is exactly my feeling and much my own history. I think the intensity of your pain can be felt most acutely by those who once knew a saner world of software development.

For those who came of age in this era of Javascript hacks, framework of the day, standard of the week, and separate open source tool for every single task an app must perform, I think it is simply normal.

I say this because after several years applying my craft to my own business in the manner of my choosing, I have recently returned to Organized Development Land. When I read the code or a module is explained to me, all I can think is "are you effin' kidding me?" But I look around and everyone else has a straight face.

If you've stayed in the industry during this evolution, you have probably had moments of frustration or confusion wrought by this change, but have now had a full WTF epiphany--likely induced while simply trying to get something done for the hundredth time, that should've been relatively straightforward.

Mainstream software development is no longer about logic, algorithms, creativity, and design. It's about trying to glue together a hodge podge of disparate crap and trying to make it work. And, for the artisans of old, it can feel like soul-crushing assembly-line work.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#329

Post by sesutton »

meredydd wrote: post #301
pixie_ wrote: post #24

Yes. I feel like we're in the dark ages right now. JavaScript - Dynamically typed, does not scale what so ever. Code written in it becomes 'read only' very quickly. Impossible to refactor. CSS - Also becomes impossible to manage. Who knows if the class you wrote is or isn't being used in HTML or JavaScript somewhere. Same problem, read-only, it only gets bigger and more unmanageable. HTML - At the heart of it, the fo…

If anything, this understates the problem. A modal web application today takes an absolute minimum of five programming languages and three frameworks: * HTML * CSS * JS * A server-side language (eg Python) * SQL And then come the (leaky) abstractions on top of them: * A framework to make JS bearable (eg Angular) * A framework to make server-side bearable (eg Django) * A framework to make CSS bearable (eg Bootstrap) .…

HTML, CSS and SQL aren't programming languages, if Turing completeness is a requirement to be a programming language.

Re: Ask HN: Is web programming a series of hacks on hacks?

#330

Post by coldpie »

sesutton wrote: post #329
meredydd wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything, this understates the problem. A modal web application today takes an absolute minimum of five programming languages and three frameworks: * HTML * CSS * JS * A server-side language (eg Python) * SQL And then come the (leaky) abstractions on top of them: * A framework to make JS bearable (eg Angular) * A framework to make server-side bearable (eg Django) * A framework to make CSS bearable (eg Bootstrap) .…

HTML, CSS and SQL aren't programming languages, if Turing completeness is a requirement to be a programming language.

This is a language lawyer nit-pick comment that doesn't add anything to the discussion.
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