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Enough with Basic Income

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Re: Enough with Basic Income

#201

Post by nicky0 »

andrenth wrote: post #170
specialist wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What tasks do you consider "work"? Child care? Elder care? Volunteering?

I think what you're trying to say is something like "people won't work anymore but they will be able to stay home and take care of their elders". Which I think is a valid point, but also one that is only true for a really small minority of the population, certainly not enough to justify putting the whole population on welfare. Consider this scenario: you're taking care of you elders and you need to go out and buy som…

Whilst some may be happy to survive on their low basic income, most will be motivated to work to achieve a higher standard of living.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#202

Post by sharemywin »

The problem is the math: 808+492+275+340 =1.9T/318M = 5915/yr=$497/mo

so your supposed to replace: housing assistance, social security, medcaid, medicare, tuition assistance,food assistance, among others with $497/mo. Also, a strong incentive to have children without a job.

Now you could not give it to children but they seem like the neediest group of people to give it to.

Now you could leave out medicare and social security but now your left with 615B / 272M = $188/mo but, why bother?

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#203

Post by listentojohan »

Nicolas_Colin wrote: post #143
aconz2 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wrote this article because it seems to me the basic income discussion is orchestrated by people, notably in technology, who are unaware of politics and reluctant to get their hands dirty. While I myself am a programmer and support basic income, I have talked with many people outside the technology world who are also in favor of such a system. YC is getting their hands dirty with their research project and Finland…

Actually, talking is not the only way. Were 19th century factory workers content with talking? No: they initiated the labor movement and conquered the modern social state. The fact that so many people talk about BI without leaving their job, raising funds, going on strike, founding unions, etc., is proof in my eyes that we're having an intellectual discussion, not waging a political battle. The one precedent of authe…

> The fact that so many people talk about BI without leaving their job, raising funds, going on strike, founding unions, etc., is proof in my eyes that we're having an intellectual discussion, not waging a political battle.

I don't exactly think that going on strike or leaving your job, serves as a good argument for UBI - quite the contrary. And no, the same cannot be said for worker rights or work similar issues.

I do think that unions have a great role to play in this, and that they could easily focus and do research on the effects on UBI, much like the YC project.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#204

Post by ebalit »

1024core wrote: post #131
anexprogrammer wrote: post #25

Fascinating that he picks Blair's Fabian speech as an example of the NHS being a thorn in government's side. I didn't vote for Blair, or support many of his policies, but his governance utterly transformed the NHS for the better. It was adequately funded for the first time in a couple of decades, at the time of this speech, and they were now searching for ways to measurably improve care, especially in comparatively n…

> The French example of basic income isn't. It's a means tested benefit which is utterly incomparable to UBI. Read the article again. His point is that the RMI (RSA) is what they ended up with, even though they wanted (started with) something similar to UBI.

No, they did not start with a UBI. RMI was means tested from the start.

The RSA was a reform intended to "smooth the edges". While you would lose you're RMI as soon as you start working, now you can keep part of the RSA during a transition period.

But the problem with RSA is that it's really complex and most people still don't get it. And it's a lot of paperware for a relatively small amount of money.

I think France is actually one of the best place to start a real UBI scheme. Our system is close to UBI but probably the worst implementation possible, with a lot of edge cases.

This proposal details a complete reform of our tax system around a UBI: http://www.allocationuniverselle.com/doc/BIEN_Munich_2012-09...

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#205

Post by ebalit »

onli wrote: post #7

The article fails to present a good alternative to a basic income, or if it did I missed it. While I don't believe in that concept, I also don't think that "I think it is fair to say that being unqualified is less of a risk today" is a fair statement to make today. Tell that the steel workers whose factory just shut down, and tell them they should become entrepreneurs instead. What an arrogance!

I think the alternative proposed by the article is clear: use the money to provide universal services.

The author also mention the fight for Obamacare as more pragmatic. I think his argument are mainly targeted at the US were universal services are lacking (or perceived as lacking).

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#206

Post by Double_Cast »

Nicolas_Colin wrote: post #199
Double_Cast wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finish the job on healthcare, and you'll discover that it becomes easier to advance the cause of UBI. This suggests you believe UHC is a useful stepping stone to UBI. Is this actually your opinion? Because it doesn't reflect the vibe I got in your article. If I understand your article correctly, you believe A) UBI is inherently fragile. B) Conservative lobbyists will cause UBI to decay into something ugly. C) UHC i…

I meant it as a conciliatory opening... What I meant is that if you care for economic security and lesser inequalities, then you have to fight for the whole liberal agenda (improving the coverage of all risks), not just one issue, otherwise the bad guys win this time, and the next, and the next. I you think UBI's worth fighting (I don't), your only chance to succeed is in the context of advancing that liberal agenda…

> you're only chance is to advance the liberal agenda.

How convenient for you. The reason why you believe UHC is a useful stepping stone is probably because making UHC a reality will pull UBI within the Overton Window. But perhaps there are other ways to improve UBI's legitimacy. Like... discussing ramifications. Or performing an experiment.

Allow me to reiterate: "Voters' power over a coalition varies directly with the voters' volatility." Once a vote is pledged, the voter's negotiating leverage is lost. It's like haggling. If a potential buyer says "Oh what a nice sweater", the sweater's price is mysteriously doubles. People learn not to say things like that, because they don't want to waste their money.

Agglomeration is one tactic at one's disposal. Walking away is another. Maybe that sounds weird. Because as far as you know, the only force at work in politics is economies of scale. "Join us! Resistance is futile!" True, the power of a coalition (over other coalitions) is proportional to its size. But it comes at the cost of the voters' power over its residing coalition. By analogy. A heavier motorcycle is more powerful. But a lighter motorcycle has better handling. Meditation: why do states/provinces/municipalities exist if the federal government has stronger economies of scale?

UBI proponents should pledge their allegiance to liberals? Wouldn't that be convenient for you. Oops, the price just doubled. Question: how does a store convince a potential customer to part with their money? The store courts them with something of value. And how does a liberal convince a UBI proponent to part with their vote? "Your idea is dumb but mine is better. So buy into mine instead. Whoah, no need to compare -- trust me I'm a professional. Now shut up and give me your vote. By the way, your vote is worthless so you should totally give it to me." The pitch didn't start out bad, but things get sketchy fast. You're essentially trying to conscript (rather than entice) mercenaries into your coalition when you're not in a position to do so.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#207

Post by katherineduh »

geezerjay wrote: post #130
joesb wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when kids have rich parents? What happens when kids know they don't have to steal or rob to survive? What happens when kids know living for the good cause will never starve them to death? What happens when kids know they can pursue their best interest without worrying about being starved?

> What happens when kids know living for the good cause will never starve them to death? Can you point out exactly how many people starved to death in any western country? Because I vividly remember that there isn't any universal basic income program in effect, and somehow people manage to feed themselves just fine. You can't expect to be taken seriously if all you can come up with are absurd emotional works of ficti…

>people manage to feed themselves just fine

http://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/impact-of-hu...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/12/teens-americ...

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#208

Post by erikpukinskis »

rayiner wrote: post #196
throwaway2016a wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is nothing libertarian about EPA and OSHA" is not 100% accurate. Care should be used when saying "nothing" Many (not all, maybe not even most, but definitely a good amount) libertarians are environmentalist and see the EPA as a valuable tool to ensure that people's rights are violated. However, in general the cause is the same but the approach is different. For example, just of those two causes should be handl…

> Many (not all, maybe not even most, but definitely a good amount) libertarians are environmentalist and see the EPA as a valuable tool to ensure that people's rights are violated. In certain narrow situations where there is an identifiable property right at issue ( e.g. dumping waste on private land). But there aren't a lot of libertarian theorists espousing a general "right" to untouched wilderness, preserving end…

> there aren't a lot of libertarian theorists espousing a general "right" to untouched wilderness, preserving endangered species, or having clean rivers.

To me, this is where the libertarian philosophy loses its internal consistency. For two reasons:

1) There is no such thing as a closed system, so land use is fundamentally social

2) For the most part, all existing property deeds were obtained by force, not through the voluntary agreeing to contracts, so no one who holds a deed really has any kind of moral claim on it.

Libertarians have to fall back on some other political system (manifest destiny, kraterocracy, democrasy, etc) to resolve the land use question. But to me land use is the foundation of all property law and the fact that Libertarianism has nothing to say about it makes it largely useless as a foundational political system. It's a nice thing to think about, but it can't be relied on to answer basic questions.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#209

Post by erikpukinskis »

DanFeldman wrote: post #153
randomdata wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really tech-related job loss? Or does tech actually create more jobs? I am from Canada, so that is the data I am most familiar with. The employment rate has almost never been higher (2008 was the highest), the unemployment rate has almost never been lower (2008 was the lowest). The US housing crash did take some toll on the Canadian economy as did the more recent fall in oil prices, but we're still looking f…

There will be a huge loss of jobs in the next 10 years, not job creation. At some point, self driving cars will exist with no driver, and around the same time, self driving trucks. Truck driver is still the most common job in many states [0]. When was the last time we saw the most common job on the brink of being wiped out? Even if tech continues to grow and add jobs, will it surpass the loss from the trucking and tr…

> There will be a huge loss of jobs in the next 10 years

Not if I have anything to do it! Luckily not everyone is a defeatist.

First principles analysis shows there is plenty of valuable work to be done, and not nearly enough people to do it all.

Unemployment is a phenomenon fabricated by the ruling class for social control. As long as people are afraid of becoming unemployed, they'll stay in an exploitive job.

It's not as if there is some kind of fundamental limit on productivity. We've been trying to finish the work for a thousand years, and yet each year we keep finding more!

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#210

Post by erikpukinskis »

DanFeldman wrote: post #153
randomdata wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really tech-related job loss? Or does tech actually create more jobs? I am from Canada, so that is the data I am most familiar with. The employment rate has almost never been higher (2008 was the highest), the unemployment rate has almost never been lower (2008 was the lowest). The US housing crash did take some toll on the Canadian economy as did the more recent fall in oil prices, but we're still looking f…

There will be a huge loss of jobs in the next 10 years, not job creation. At some point, self driving cars will exist with no driver, and around the same time, self driving trucks. Truck driver is still the most common job in many states [0]. When was the last time we saw the most common job on the brink of being wiped out? Even if tech continues to grow and add jobs, will it surpass the loss from the trucking and tr…

> There will be a huge loss of jobs in the next 10 years

Not if I have anything to do it! Luckily not everyone is a defeatist.

First principles analysis shows there is plenty of work to be done, and not nearly enough people to do it all. We could probably erase global unemployment by adding mental health care jobs alone.

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