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Startup employees don't earn more

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Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#71

Post by zachsnow »

djur wrote: post #14
zachsnow wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that while I agree that the marginal value decreases I also feel (literally feel ) that somehow having say an order of magnitude more would somehow be qualitatively different (and better). Funny to see my own biases play tricks (?) on me!

Paradoxically, I think that you feel that way _because_ of the decreasing marginal value of money. Superfluous income is disposable income, and spending money in a way entirely of your choosing is pleasurable. Especially if you're already making enough to get by, the value of the money you're already making is "priced in" to your subconscious analysis. Thus, the next order of magnitude of income really is qualitative…

Of course, this is a good interpretation! Cheers.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#72

Post by slykat »

cj wrote: post #15

If your #1 job criteria is compensation, do not work at a startup. You'll be paid more at big companies. If you don't mind being paid a little less, and want the opportunity to be a part of building a company from the ground up, consider working at a startup. There will be a lot more ups and downs than at a company like Google. But at smaller companies, you'll have the chance to have a material impact on the success…

I'm going to have to disagree that you are "a paid a little less" at startups. In my experience working for a startup is a 20-30% drop in compensation.

When startups say they are near market, they mean base salaries. They neglect bonuses, stock grants, signing bonuses, stock refreshes, 401K matching. These things add up real quickly. Even worse, I've found that startup salaries usually don't grow as large companies (very few startups do equity refresh, raises, COL increases, etc.)

Compound this 30% difference over a 4 year stint and things start to look bad, esp. when you think of $1m+ home prices left in startup havens like San Francisco & New York. If the majority of startups were in affordable cities, I'd agree that the compensation difference isn't that much, but the bulk of startups are located in places where that 30% drop means a significant change in quality of life.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#73

Post by jhall1468 »

bbcbasic wrote: post #50
mtviewdave wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody wants to admit it but we are in a tech bubble. On the contrary, people love to claim Silicon Valley is in a tech bubble and have been doing so continuously since 2011.

If it isn't a bubble the rest of the world is in an 'anti-bubble', which will hopefully anti-pop any time soon resulting in more money for tech workers :-)

Demand for good developers is extremely high in the US. Which is why salaries are so high.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#74

Post by WhitneyLand »

bunkydoo wrote: post #24

I'm gonna be straight with y'all, I earn more as a post office mail carrier than I ever did as a programmer for a silicon valley startup with $1 million dollars seed funding. I also surprisingly have more freedom even though I work basically like a slave. Nobody wants to admit it but we are in a tech bubble. Sure, if you are in the right startup things might be different. I had a great valley experience - but it was…

Why be a postal carrier with your skills when the average salary seems to be so much less (40-50k) than you could make?

Forget SV you could work remote from any inexpensive place in the country, or just park a camper near a national park and live the dream.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#75

Post by shostack »

aboonaboo wrote: post #70
bbcbasic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any chance of a systemic failure that would affect the entire economy caused by Silicon Valley? I am not talking about some shares losing value but with the Credit Crunch, we had thousands of average Joes in above their head in debt which couldn't be refinanced while the value of their home crashed.

No not really it would just make the bay area housing bubble burst won't really affect the country

I'm not even convinced it would do that. I'd love to get my hands on employment numbers of VC funded startups that aren't profitable vs those of big established tech giants like Google, FB, Apple, Adobe etc. with strong revenue streams and billions in the bank to weather whatever comes.

My hypothesis is that the former group are a small enough number where they might shake up confidence in the housing market temporarily, but would ultimately not sufficiently dent demand.

Big companies might go on a hiring spree for cheap talent and the housing market continues as it has been.

China money drying up could also be a catalyst or a natural disaster like a major earthquake could be another.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#76

Post by aab0 »

hackaflocka wrote: post #44

On average? Of course not. It's a power-law! Averages mean nothing in power-law situations.

It's not a true power-law (assuming it's not a lognormal). It's truncated by the fact that anyone considering a startup would never have earned more than the world GDP, or more specifically, the peak tech market cap to date (Apple's $775b). Once it's truncated at a finite value, the moments become meaningful.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#77

Post by JoeAltmaier »

dohoho wrote: post #40
bunkydoo wrote: post #24

I'm gonna be straight with y'all, I earn more as a post office mail carrier than I ever did as a programmer for a silicon valley startup with $1 million dollars seed funding. I also surprisingly have more freedom even though I work basically like a slave. Nobody wants to admit it but we are in a tech bubble. Sure, if you are in the right startup things might be different. I had a great valley experience - but it was…

Hah, I worked in government as an engineer before I moved to a startup doing something completely different. If you're ok with being a slave and fighting the very people you're working for to get the benefits you need to live a decent life then yeah government work is for you. That mindset that we're in a tech bubble is what I was worried about when I took on a city position but it's just fear. I thought it would hap…

Yeah but govt jobs pay a pension. Its the largest fraction of the federal budget. That doesn't happen in Silicon Valley.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#78

Post by msandford »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #56
elliotec wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. If I spent 20% of my salary on lottery tickets, how good would my chances be of winning vs cashing in my stock at a startup that goes public in which I made 20% less salary? And what would the payout differences be?

The startup deal is a much better deal than lottery tickets. If you can get a 1% ownership stake and we assume a 10% chance of a 100 million dollar startup, the expected value of that grant is 100k. The expected value of buying lottery tickets with 20% of your salary is close to zero You should also consider the fact that if you are an early employee in a startup, your future expected payout is at least in part a fun…

You don't get to say that the EV is close to zero in one case, but not in the other. 20k/year (dollars spent) * 1/100mm (odds of winning) * 100mm (jackpot) = 20k/year

If you get a 1% ownership stake for a 20% salary reduction (per year) and you have to stay there for say, 4-5 years in order to get that 100k payout then you're looking at numbers on very similar terms.

I understand why people need to be convinced that their odds are much better in startups than in the lottery. But wanting to believe something to be true and it being true aren't the same thing.

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#79

Post by Johnny555 »

bunkydoo wrote: post #24

I'm gonna be straight with y'all, I earn more as a post office mail carrier than I ever did as a programmer for a silicon valley startup with $1 million dollars seed funding. I also surprisingly have more freedom even though I work basically like a slave. Nobody wants to admit it but we are in a tech bubble. Sure, if you are in the right startup things might be different. I had a great valley experience - but it was…

Glassdoor says that a letter carrier earns around $50K/year.

Interns still in college can earn that much in Silicon Valley startup, a decent (not stellar) engineer can easily be in the $120K-$180K range.

I don't see how I'm losing no matter what happens to my employer -- I'm getting paid a much higher salary than when I earned working for a more established, non-startup before I was laid off during a large reorganization and I'm doing much more interesting work than I was at the larger company.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/city-letter-carrier-salar...

Re: Startup employees don't earn more

#80

Post by Johnny555 »

exstudent2 wrote: post #29
bunkydoo wrote: post #24

I'm gonna be straight with y'all, I earn more as a post office mail carrier than I ever did as a programmer for a silicon valley startup with $1 million dollars seed funding. I also surprisingly have more freedom even though I work basically like a slave. Nobody wants to admit it but we are in a tech bubble. Sure, if you are in the right startup things might be different. I had a great valley experience - but it was…

$1 million is practically nothing as far as startup funding goes. Especially in the Bay Area. That's basically a year to find product market fit and raise another round. No offense but you don't sound like you have enough experience to be commenting on our industry as a whole.

Why did this get voted down? A $1M funded startup is very early stage, and statistically not likely to succeed.
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