Enough with Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#121

Post by kmkemp » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

zaguios wrote: post #59

specialist wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how France's system of basic income gave people less incentive to work As a regular reader of mondaynote.com (and so therefore an expert), I have the impression that France has many other obstacles to entrepreneurship. Like their labor laws. It seems to me that universal basic income, alongside universal health care and other reforms, would greatly reduce the need for stultifying labor laws. More simply, employers co…

Interesting, I am not familiar with the job situation in France so I was basing the sentence on this quote from the article "Second, it has often been blamed for providing an incentive to give up looking for a job". It sounds like whether or not the statement is true as you mentioned basic income still provides an overall benefit.

UBI doesn't disincentivize work. If I told you that I would give you $10k/year unconditionally, would you quit your day job? What if you were currently unemployed, would you stop looking for a job? There is no reason to as my payment to you doesn't depend on if you get a job or not.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#122

Post by aconz2 » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:12 PM UTC

Nicolas_Colin wrote: post #89

jnbiche wrote: post #46

This guy just seems upset that people are offering up a solution to tech-related job loss that isn't with traditional welfare solution proposed by the team he cheers for. He didn't spent a lot of time offering up specific arguments against basic income, but rather on background, and the primary arguments he has are to me some of the strongest arguments for BI: 1) He worries about division and polarization. Well, BI i…

Thank you for your response. I wrote this article because it seems to me the basic income discussion is orchestrated by people, notably in technology, who are unaware of politics and reluctant to get their hands dirty. I know that UBI, on paper, looks like it’s a good answer to many of the challenges listed at the end. But I don’t think that UBI, once put in place, would be as strong, politically, as other universal…

> I wrote this article because it seems to me the basic income discussion is orchestrated by people, notably in technology, who are unaware of politics and reluctant to get their hands dirty.

While I myself am a programmer and support basic income, I have talked with many people outside the technology world who are also in favor of such a system. YC is getting their hands dirty with their research project and Finland's government is most definitely aware of politics. The only way for us (US citizens) to get our hands dirty in politics when not voting is talking about these things.

> ... energy thrown in BI-related discussions is wasted while it could be invested in favor of universal health insurance for instance ...

BI and health insurance, universal or not, solve very different issues. Both deserve attention and one doesn't preclude the other. I do think that a very important part of BI discussions is what programs it can replace, what it can supplement, and what it doesn't solve.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#123

Post by WheelsAtLarge » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

Nicolas_Colin wrote: post #89

jnbiche wrote: post #46

This guy just seems upset that people are offering up a solution to tech-related job loss that isn't with traditional welfare solution proposed by the team he cheers for. He didn't spent a lot of time offering up specific arguments against basic income, but rather on background, and the primary arguments he has are to me some of the strongest arguments for BI: 1) He worries about division and polarization. Well, BI i…

Thank you for your response. I wrote this article because it seems to me the basic income discussion is orchestrated by people, notably in technology, who are unaware of politics and reluctant to get their hands dirty. I know that UBI, on paper, looks like it’s a good answer to many of the challenges listed at the end. But I don’t think that UBI, once put in place, would be as strong, politically, as other universal…

I would add that, one answer to replace all the welfare system is not a fix. Yes, the current system looks like a complicated pointless machine but it's a system that got that way because it needs to fulfill many needs. One solution for all sounds great but nothing is that simple.

Like knots in tangled string. We need to fix the system one knot at a time. We might even need to cut out whole sections but there's not one simple solution for the whole problem.

It's interesting how many of the techies out there would laugh at the idea of replacing the internet with just computers and wires - what could be simpler. Yet according to many, we can replace a complicated system like welfare with a simple system like basic income. To me this points out lack of understanding and as you said, reluctance to get ones hands dirty.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#124

Post by makomk » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

Nicolas_Colin wrote: post #96

SmellTheGlove wrote: post #2

There are some good points in here. However, what I think the author misses is that we are within reach of a post-scarcity economy, at which point all of those historical economic references go out the window (since nearly all economic theory assumes scarcity). That possibility makes a UBI experiment very worthwhile to me. I don't think we're there today or anything like that, but it may be within our lifetimes that…

I wrote the article. Thank you for your response. I don't think post-scarcity will eat the entire economy anytime soon. In particular, I think that it will still be unaffordable to access proper medical care, child care, and housing. And I don't see how UBI solves that. Hence there are more pressing problems, like deploying a sustainable universal health insurance in the US (either public option or single payer) and…

On the contrary, I think that is exactly why post-scarcity is going to devour the economy. Think about what happens when access to medical care and housing become the scarce resources, when it becomes pointless to buy more consumer goods because you have nowhere to put them anyway. More and more of the economy becomes diverted into the pockets of those who own real estate and the medical industry. Improvements in efficiency elsewhere just make the problem worse further damage those industries. An increasing portion of our economy gets siphoned into the pockets of a rentier class with little reason to spend it.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#125

Post by 1024core » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

teraflop wrote: post #8

> You have to fill in many papers, prove that you don’t have sufficient income or any valuable property, go through many humiliating and intrusive controls. If you want to earn (a small amount of) money without working, then you must endure it all. In most cases it is necessary to seek the help of a social worker to carry out the procedure in its entirety. Funny how the article zeroes in on this as a criticism of bas…

Then you didn't read and understand the article. His point is that this is how the system will eventually end up. When the people see their taxes go up substantially, they'll vote the UBI supporters out, bring in a means test and you end up with this bureaucracy.

As an example: see how quickly the Democrats lost control of both the houses once Obamacare was passed. And see how the Republicans are continuously trying to kill Obamacare.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#126

Post by randomdata » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #46

This guy just seems upset that people are offering up a solution to tech-related job loss that isn't with traditional welfare solution proposed by the team he cheers for. He didn't spent a lot of time offering up specific arguments against basic income, but rather on background, and the primary arguments he has are to me some of the strongest arguments for BI: 1) He worries about division and polarization. Well, BI i…

Is there really tech-related job loss? Or does tech actually create more jobs?

I am from Canada, so that is the data I am most familiar with. The employment rate has almost never been higher (2008 was the highest), the unemployment rate has almost never been lower (2008 was the lowest). The US housing crash did take some toll on the Canadian economy as did the more recent fall in oil prices, but we're still looking far better than the historic norms when it comes to job numbers.

At the same time, I remember in the mid-1980s there was widespread media panic about how the robots starting to become common in manufacturing were going to eliminate all the jobs. A rise in employment, and decline in unemployment is exactly the opposite of what I would have expected in the following 30 years based on the panic at the time. The claims being made today are exactly the same as they were 30 years ago.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#127

Post by xapata » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #95

throwaway2016a wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found your comment constructive and I don't want to start an off-topic debate, just open something up to private contemplation. You, of course, have a right to your own opinion. Many (all?) libertarians lean left on a great many social issue and consider the social part of libertarianism as important if not more important than the right leaning economic part. I think the term "libertarian right" while not an incorr…

Libertarians intersect with liberals only on a handful of social issues: gay marriage, drugs, and abortion. Most of the social issues near-and-dear to the left are not compatible with libertarianism. There is nothing libertarian about the Civil Rights Act of 1964--which curtailed peoples' freedom to serve which customers they chose to serve or hire which employees they chose to hire. There is nothing libertarian abou…

Depends on what your definition of "liberty" is and how you balance different kinds.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#128

Post by geezerjay » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

ntaenta wrote: post #74

blahi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens in the very long term? What happens when kids are raised with the attitude that they are guaranteed to survive on basic income? What happens when their number grows? What happens when that large group feels that bare survival doesn't cut it any more and want more? What happens if the numbers actually don't pan out but scared politicians doon't want to give up power and cook the books for decades? Rem…

> What happens when kids are raised with the attitude that they are guaranteed to survive on basic income? When kids are raised without the persistent threat of not surviving? They'll stand a better chance of flourishing and reaching their full potential, like many of us here on HN who have an affluent background.

> When kids are raised without the persistent threat of not surviving?

Having to contribute to society by keeping a job, and using the income of said job to finance your cost of living is far from being a life-risking enterprise.

You're trying to avoid the point by inventing absurd emotional examples.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#129

Post by 1024core » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:45 PM UTC

anexprogrammer wrote: post #57

at-fates-hands wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> It is not like we can't afford it. Have you looked at the US Economy lately? (Jan 2016) Why 2016 keeps getting uglier for US economy - http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/29/why-2016-keeps-getting-uglier... (April 2016) Americans' confidence in economy at 2016 low - http://money.cnn.com/2016/04/28/news/economy/us-economic-con... (June 2016) The next recession is already here—and there isn't much the Fed can do - http://ww…

The whole point of UBI is universal. If it's just moving some bits into everyone's account monthly, entire layers of bureacracy, with their buildings, staff, forms, and fraud checking departments, can be removed. It should make it remarkably cheap to run, comparatively. Make it lower income only and you have to bring all that back.

You're further reinforcing his point, that people in SV have no clue about politics and government. Ronald Reagan is supposed to have said that a government program is the closest thing to eternal life that we’ve ever seen on Earth. Government programs never die. Period.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/28/government-p...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/even-in-an-era-of-bu...

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#130

Post by geezerjay » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 5:47 PM UTC

joesb wrote: post #112

blahi wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what happens in the very long term? What happens when kids are raised with the attitude that they are guaranteed to survive on basic income? What happens when their number grows? What happens when that large group feels that bare survival doesn't cut it any more and want more? What happens if the numbers actually don't pan out but scared politicians doon't want to give up power and cook the books for decades? Rem…

What happens when kids have rich parents? What happens when kids know they don't have to steal or rob to survive? What happens when kids know living for the good cause will never starve them to death? What happens when kids know they can pursue their best interest without worrying about being starved?

> What happens when kids know living for the good cause will never starve them to death?

Can you point out exactly how many people starved to death in any western country? Because I vividly remember that there isn't any universal basic income program in effect, and somehow people manage to feed themselves just fine.

You can't expect to be taken seriously if all you can come up with are absurd emotional works of fiction.