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Enough with Basic Income

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Re: Enough with Basic Income

#71

Post by SmellTheGlove »

justinmk wrote: post #37
SmellTheGlove wrote: post #2

There are some good points in here. However, what I think the author misses is that we are within reach of a post-scarcity economy, at which point all of those historical economic references go out the window (since nearly all economic theory assumes scarcity). That possibility makes a UBI experiment very worthwhile to me. I don't think we're there today or anything like that, but it may be within our lifetimes that…

> The main threats are overpopulation and politics, as tech seems to be ticking along quite nicely. If [over]population is a factor, then "post-scarcity" is fiction. This makes me think BI advocates are quietly assuming constraints such as "we'll discourage reproduction somehow"--while constantly mentioning how BI will be free of constraints.

It's a factor now. Two generations ago, we barely had computing, and we had very little non-fossil energy. If there weren't challenges to solve, we'd be there by now, but progress continues.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#72

Post by glenda »

blahi wrote: post #67
glenda wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from, however, there is no doubt an existing entitlement issue that is directly based on how much money you have. We have ALL seen this. Also, what history books are you talking about? I've read some history books but your suggestion was very unhelpful!

I suggest starting with Pillars of Earth. It is a popular book, nothing too spectacular but it will put the perspective in your "it can't be worse than what we have today" attitude.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I don't believe that "things can't be worse" but rather "things could be better than what we have today"

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#73

Post by inflagranti »

stephengillie wrote: post #61
jnbiche wrote: post #46

This guy just seems upset that people are offering up a solution to tech-related job loss that isn't with traditional welfare solution proposed by the team he cheers for. He didn't spent a lot of time offering up specific arguments against basic income, but rather on background, and the primary arguments he has are to me some of the strongest arguments for BI: 1) He worries about division and polarization. Well, BI i…

> On the right is the infamous voucher system. It has been widely experimented, often with negative results, in fields such as education. The principle is to provide individuals with money and let them find providers on a lightly regulated market. Vouchers often deliver poor performance. The money distributed contributes to inflating the prices as the price elasticity of supply is negative—if only because nobody’s su…

Unlike which other entities exactly that are not made by people!? I guess you mean private companies which are always well run (how many banks had to be bailed out?), never susceptible to corruption (VW comes to mind just recently) and offer great customer service (any cable company ever)...

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#74

Post by ntaenta »

blahi wrote: post #31
newjersey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to fill in many papers, prove that you don’t have sufficient income or any valuable property, go through many humiliating and intrusive controls. If you want to earn (a small amount of) money without working, then you must endure it all. In most cases it is necessary to seek the help of a social worker to carry out the procedure in its entirety. This is exactly the reason I want basic income. I want nobody…

And what happens in the very long term? What happens when kids are raised with the attitude that they are guaranteed to survive on basic income? What happens when their number grows? What happens when that large group feels that bare survival doesn't cut it any more and want more? What happens if the numbers actually don't pan out but scared politicians doon't want to give up power and cook the books for decades? Rem…

> What happens when kids are raised with the attitude that they are guaranteed to survive on basic income?

When kids are raised without the persistent threat of not surviving? They'll stand a better chance of flourishing and reaching their full potential, like many of us here on HN who have an affluent background.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#75

Post by rjsw »

justinmk wrote: post #37
SmellTheGlove wrote: post #2

There are some good points in here. However, what I think the author misses is that we are within reach of a post-scarcity economy, at which point all of those historical economic references go out the window (since nearly all economic theory assumes scarcity). That possibility makes a UBI experiment very worthwhile to me. I don't think we're there today or anything like that, but it may be within our lifetimes that…

> The main threats are overpopulation and politics, as tech seems to be ticking along quite nicely. If [over]population is a factor, then "post-scarcity" is fiction. This makes me think BI advocates are quietly assuming constraints such as "we'll discourage reproduction somehow"--while constantly mentioning how BI will be free of constraints.

Most developed countries are already below the birthrate required to maintain the current population.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#76

Post by chillwaves »

justinmk wrote: post #65
chillwaves wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems easy enough to give BI to folks who are 18+ and not offer more for kids, or only offer more for the first kid, whatever. There's no reason to give a financial incentive to have more kids, and if you don't the disincentive is already built in (kids cost money). By the way, the issue is not as much population growth as high consumption. What is worse, more people living on basic income or the billions in China an…

> Seems easy enough to give BI to folks who are 18+ and not offer more for kids, or only offer more for the first kid, So absence of scarcity will totally be a thing if everything just goes according to plan. Got it.

Absence of scarcity is not a result of BI. You have it mixed up. It's the other way around entirely. My response (quoted by you) is merely to counter the urban legend that poor people just like popping out babies to get that sweet government assistance. Alleviating extreme poverty does more to slow population growth than anything else we know so far.

Your sarcasm does not contribute to this discussion.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#77

Post by sixhobbits »

Most discussions I see about basic income (BI) fall into the same trap of conflating two very different arguments:

Argument 1 looks at BI on a practical level and asks questions such as: Is BI feasible? Will it ever be feasible? Who should administer it? What would it mean for the economy?

Argument 2 deals with BI more on a social level and can even be modeled as a thought experiment: What would people do if they had basic income? Would it remove the incentive to work? Would it reduce inequality? Would it offer more freedom to recipients or less?

Many people (including the author of this article) make grand claims like "It's obvious that it'll fail"; "It's obvious that people will stop being productive members of society if they have BI"; "It's obvious that it's not feasible".

I think that the most persuasive argument, and one advocated by the YCombinator experiment, is "We need more data". This holds true especially for argument 2 (how will people react if they received BI). Argument 1 for me is less interesting, but my rudimentary understanding of economics and politics is enough for me to be sure that anyone who declares a black-and-white position on the idea probably needs to spend some more time thinking and reading about it.

No matter whether you are for or against BI, you should be happy that these experiments are being done. If you're against it, they will provide evidence that you are right and then people can "Just stop talking about it already". That's not going to happen because you wrote an overly long rant against it. If you are for BI, such experiments might confirm your hypotheses that BI will be beneficial to recipients and will allow us to move more towards argument 1 (is BI feasible? where will the money come from?).

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#78

Post by blahi »

chillwaves wrote: post #51
blahi wrote: post #45

He is spot on with those "ad hominim attacks". Based on what is written on HN people in that group haven't got a clue about politics. So tell me again why that shouldn't be taken into account when judging their position?

Do clue us in. Calling people you disagree with "clueless" is not an argument.

Only if I could. It's impossible to teach people though. You can only take from people, you can't give them anything. Especially when it comes to subtle things like politics.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#79

Post by anexprogrammer »

aminok wrote: post #62
anexprogrammer wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That does not explain why we have to resort to state intervention. Having a country where people fall, through no fault of their own (unless you count their genetics), to such an extent that they live in tents and sewers is enough indication that there's inadequate state protection.

Having a country where people are thrown in prison for refusing to help other people who, through no fault of the imprisoned individual's own, are in unfortunate circumstances, is a basic indication of authoritarianism. Like something the Sparrows in GoT would justify.

Are you proposing there be no taxes at all?

How do you pay for military, police, courts and all other aspects of a developed state?

If taxes are ok to pay for those, why not a UBI that tries to improve on what's currently done? It won't be perfect, nothing human is.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#80

Post by AdrianB1 »

It would be so nice if the people in favor of UBI would be the only contributors to the system, leaving everyone else to live their lives as they like. But no, UBI means everyone else needs to contribute and convincing is done by force ("you pay your taxes or go to prison, you citizen, and your tax money will be used for what we want").
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