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China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

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Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#41

Post by izacus »

tgb wrote: post #16

So this was originally made to carry the USSR's Buran space-shuttle-like project. I'd never heard of Buran before, but I have heard many critiques of the US's space shuttle program. Yet Buran looks almost identical from a cursory view. Why would the Soviet's independently develop a highly flawed project? This article does a decent job answering that: http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a9763/did-the-...

> Why would the Soviet's independently develop a highly flawed project?

Probably a few reasons:

* At the point of starting Shuttle operations, the flaws of the design weren't as apparent, especially not to general public.

* Even though it LOOKS similar, it's actually not all that similar in design. The main difference is that it doesn't actually carry engines (which are the most expensive and problematic part of Shuttle due to their planned reuse) - Buran was taken into orbit by an expendable Energia rocket, which "solved" the problems with expensive engine rebuilds and testing.

* At the end of the day, Buran never got past the prototype stage. It flew a single mission (empty, fully automated), landed and was then shelved. Only two prototypes were ever built.

Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#42

Post by vasili111 »

crawshaw wrote: post #31
wallace_f wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it difficult enough that not even a nation state as large and powerful as china has obstacles to develop a heavy turbofan? With respect to other tech they've developed I don't know what is technologically difficult here -- I'm asking genuinely as a layman, it's not a rhetorical statement of disagreement.

Fluid dynamics and combustion chambers. It's rocket science, a long, expensive trial-and-error development process. And unlike other sciences, most of the results are never published so each entity has to recreate the foundations themselves. It takes money, time, and dedicated careers.

Why not to just buy one aircraft and reverse engineer its engines? What is the problem with just copying exact copy of existing engine?

Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#43

Post by finid »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #22
finid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of that article answered all your questions. Take a few moments to read it.

Hm, the words "fuel" and "economic" do not occur in that article. You can infer something from phrases like "flying super heavy cargos" and "by bringing infrastructure ... that are normally too big for airlift" but it would be interesting to see if anyone has something to add directly on that topic as to what exactly the drawbacks to that scale are. The fact that only one was ever made also implies that the uses are…

"Fuel" and "economic" do not have to be used explicitly in the article, or is reading and comprehension a lost art?

Take the following paragraph, for example:

> For China, the An-225 would open whole new frontiers in commercial and military air transportation. A fleet of civilian An-225s could quickly ship heavy and bulky cargoes of massive scale, ranging from construction equipment to consumer goods. For humanitarian purposes, the An-225 could support disaster relief operations, able to fly in not just large amounts of aid, but also by bringing infrastructure like power generation and water treatment that are normally too big for airlift.

That spells out in plain language why possession of the An-225 and its technologies make economic sense for China. And the paragraph after that state the military reasons why China would need the An-225.

Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#44

Post by vasili111 »

icegreentea wrote: post #39
fma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This being China...what are the chances they can buy existing designs and reverse engineer them and improve then so they don't start from scratch. They've done it before...

Well, they've almost certainly been trying that. And as the OP said, it hasn't been paying off in a big way. If they've been doing it (I'm guessing they have), then they've probably benefitted, just not enough for the big win. Once you get into materials and fabrication, having a finished example to examine is rarely going to lead to a big win. If the secret sauce is in the fabrication (HOW do you make a single cryst…

In that case, China needs to build some good analog of KGB.

Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#45

Post by finid »

Symmetry wrote: post #25
finid wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of that article answered all your questions. Take a few moments to read it.

I don't see the author addressing that topic either and I reread the article twice.

Practically every single paragraph in that article, including image captions, either infer or directly address the economic reasons for why China would want the An-225 and its technologies.

Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#46

Post by clintonb »

vasili111 wrote: post #42
crawshaw wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fluid dynamics and combustion chambers. It's rocket science, a long, expensive trial-and-error development process. And unlike other sciences, most of the results are never published so each entity has to recreate the foundations themselves. It takes money, time, and dedicated careers.

Why not to just buy one aircraft and reverse engineer its engines? What is the problem with just copying exact copy of existing engine?

In this case U.S. government restrictions probably restrict China from buying U.S.-manufactured planes. I doubt Antonov wants to sell its only An-225.

Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#47

Post by finid »

prasadjoglekar wrote: post #4
cm2187 wrote: post #3

Is this really meant for civilian usage or does anyone think China is trying to match the US military forces projection capabilities?

Perhaps a bit of both? The article cites both humanitarian and military power projection capabilities.

Thanks for taking the time to read the article.

Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#49

Post by avar »

vasili111 wrote: post #42
crawshaw wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fluid dynamics and combustion chambers. It's rocket science, a long, expensive trial-and-error development process. And unlike other sciences, most of the results are never published so each entity has to recreate the foundations themselves. It takes money, time, and dedicated careers.

Why not to just buy one aircraft and reverse engineer its engines? What is the problem with just copying exact copy of existing engine?

This thing is not exactly something you can just order online at http://www.antonov.com

Obviously if China wants to buy one the fact that they want to reverse engineer its technology is going to be patently obvious.

Even if China could get a hold of an AN-225 reverse engineering one is a huge task, and at best you only know exactly what this hardware did, not what they avoided, or good ideas they didn't pursue purely due to resource constraints etc.

So what happens instead is that a state like China approaches the Ukraine for a manufacturing agreement like the one described in the article. China hands over a lot of money which covers not just the planes but also the tech, and job are created in the Ukraine as a result.

Re: China Will Resurrect the World's Largest Plane

#50

Post by wolf550e »

vasili111 wrote: post #44
icegreentea wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they've almost certainly been trying that. And as the OP said, it hasn't been paying off in a big way. If they've been doing it (I'm guessing they have), then they've probably benefitted, just not enough for the big win. Once you get into materials and fabrication, having a finished example to examine is rarely going to lead to a big win. If the secret sauce is in the fabrication (HOW do you make a single cryst…

In that case, China needs to build some good analog of KGB.

They have it, and Boeing and Airbus and US and European counterintelligence people are watching them.
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