Live data from Hacker News

Enough with Basic Income

salon.thefamily.co

21–30 of 214 posts

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#21
post #8

> You have to fill in many papers, prove that you don’t have sufficient income or any valuable property, go through many humiliating and intrusive controls. If you want to earn (a small amount of) money without working, then you must endure it all. In most cases it is necessary to seek the help of a social worker to carry out the procedure in its entirety. Funny how the article zeroes in on this as a criticism of bas…

Another things I noticed is how it pointed out how France's system of basic income gave people less incentive to work and thus contributed to 10% unemployment. Isn't that also another reason many people advocate for basic income since with all our technological advancement it shouldn't actually be a requirement for everyone to work? Isn't that proof that basic income is having it's desired effect despite what appears to be a very mediocre implementation?

I only read through about half of the article, but I didn't really see any real reasons why basic income would be bad. Most of the arguments boiled down to "That's not how we do things now". I ended up coming away from this article with more faith in the potential for basic income than I did going into it as none of these arguments were very compelling.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#22
post #19

There is a lot in this article I disagree with but let me focus on the NHS argument. >> "The painful problem, which turned the NHS into a thorn in the side of every British government, is that in the current context of tax revolt, hatred of government, and fiscal austerity, the quality of the experience provided by the NHS can only go down, with longer waiting lines, less customized care, and ultimately a vicious cir…

So the solution to poor service provided by NHS is to eliminate any competitors and force more people onto NHS hoping that this improves the service?

Yes. The amount of money locum staff get is incredible. I know a doctor who exclusively does locum work - he works 3 months a year and has more than enough money to spend the rest of the time travelling. If you eliminate private health care you eliminate that cost and you are the only employer.

Edit: To clarify this as it seems like a very unpopular opinion around these parts: a public system isn't going to work in a free/competitive market. I think we need to either go all in on a public system or all in on a private system. When you land somewhere in the middle it just doesn't work.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#23

There are some good points in here. However, what I think the author misses is that we are within reach of a post-scarcity economy, at which point all of those historical economic references go out the window (since nearly all economic theory assumes scarcity). That possibility makes a UBI experiment very worthwhile to me. I don't think we're there today or anything like that, but it may be within our lifetimes that…

Some may argue we are already in a post-scarcity economy.

Unfortunately virtual scarcity will persist for some time. This is because the economic system isn't organized enough to distribute all resources fairly and efficiently. As jobs decline (due to increased automation and export), the old way of distributing resources fairly fails, and virtual scarcity will increase.

UBI seems like it can fill that gap but I worry that it's an overly simplistic solution. It seems like it can cause runaway inflation without a counter-balance. What prevents rent/food/gas prices from simply going up?

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#24
Interesting article, and a good mind-expanding summary of various options and history.

TL/DR:

> Basic income is to the social state what the flat tax is to the tax system. It flatters the engineering mind with its apparent simplicity. But in fact it is impossible to implement; it’s also politically suicidal; nobody’s ready to die for it; and even if it existed, it would probably trigger extraordinary political tension and the highest level of inequality in modern Western history.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#25
Fascinating that he picks Blair's Fabian speech as an example of the NHS being a thorn in government's side.

I didn't vote for Blair, or support many of his policies, but his governance utterly transformed the NHS for the better. It was adequately funded for the first time in a couple of decades, at the time of this speech, and they were now searching for ways to measurably improve care, especially in comparatively neglected areas such as mental health.

Quality goes down when governments start bringing political ideology to the fore - eg "we must bring the efficiency of the market to the NHS" neatly ignores the fact the NHS is actually pretty damn efficient, and is one of the strongest buyers on the planet getting significantly better pricing from all the drug companies. Adding managers and market aspects actually worsened this.

The French example of basic income isn't. It's a means tested benefit which is utterly incomparable to UBI.

I'm starting to doubt everything he's written by this point.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#26

There are some good points in here. However, what I think the author misses is that we are within reach of a post-scarcity economy, at which point all of those historical economic references go out the window (since nearly all economic theory assumes scarcity). That possibility makes a UBI experiment very worthwhile to me. I don't think we're there today or anything like that, but it may be within our lifetimes that…

There will be no post-scarcity economy, or rather, if there is one, we're already living in it. People like to trade stuff. This means there will always be things people want to trade. This means money, commerce, and scarcity aren't going anywhere. The post-scarcity folks seem to assume that there is some basic set of things: food, shelter, healthcare ... that once we have, we'll be "done" It's never going to work th…

There may not be post scarcity as there will always people the desire more and thus commerce will exist. However that doesn't necessarily means that everyone needs to contribute to that economy. If we have developed the technology to allow for basic food, shelter, and healthcare then people who don't strive for anything more should be able to acquire these things without additional work and become a basic right. In my mind the idea of basic work isn't to stop people from working, it's to stop requiring it for basic livelihood.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#27

There are some good points in here. However, what I think the author misses is that we are within reach of a post-scarcity economy, at which point all of those historical economic references go out the window (since nearly all economic theory assumes scarcity). That possibility makes a UBI experiment very worthwhile to me. I don't think we're there today or anything like that, but it may be within our lifetimes that…

There will be no post-scarcity economy, or rather, if there is one, we're already living in it. People like to trade stuff. This means there will always be things people want to trade. This means money, commerce, and scarcity aren't going anywhere. The post-scarcity folks seem to assume that there is some basic set of things: food, shelter, healthcare ... that once we have, we'll be "done" It's never going to work th…

> "People like to trade stuff. This means there will always be things people want to trade. This means money, commerce, and scarcity aren't going anywhere."

Sure, there will continue to be trade, but the need/desire to trade will be reduced.

To look at how/why, you need to look at decentralised production. Technologies like 3D printers promise to be able to produce many of the products we currently trade for, and this goes beyond the plastic trinkets people currently associate with 3D printers (there are already 3D printer devices in the fields of clothing, food, medicine, heavy machinery, etc...). So whilst there will be trade for the raw materials, why would you pay someone else to make something for you when you have access to a machine to do it for you (note that I said access, not ownership, I don't expect everyone will own a device that can create a car, for example)? It makes sense for people to cut out the middle man when the end result is just as good as they could've gotten by paying a premium.

There will still be people wishing to trade for things they can't get for low cost locally, but there will be a lot of industries disrupted by the ability of people to produce their own consumer goods.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#28
post #8

> You have to fill in many papers, prove that you don’t have sufficient income or any valuable property, go through many humiliating and intrusive controls. If you want to earn (a small amount of) money without working, then you must endure it all. In most cases it is necessary to seek the help of a social worker to carry out the procedure in its entirety. Funny how the article zeroes in on this as a criticism of bas…

As much as I disagree with the author, the reason why RMI is brought up is to highlight the next point of "Silicon Valley Hates / Ignores Politics". I think the difference in applicability is understood, otherwise this would be a really naively written article...

> So you could argue that the “RMI/RSA” is basic income, except maybe for the paperware frictions that it inflicts on those who are eligible and that could be removed thanks to technology. Accordingly, those in favor of basic income should pay attention to the “RMI/RSA” and draw appropriate lessons: it’s not simple (at all); it has adverse economic effects; and it is widely denounced, notably on the right, as “assistance” (assistanat) that deprives those who claim the benefit from any incentive to look for a job, thus making them live off the middle class taxpayers. If you know politics, you can guess where this is going. Unfortunately, politics is not Silicon Valley’s strong suit.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#29
post #20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people from all over the world will start moving there. I don't think immigration laws would permit that. For one, you couldn't "just move" to the US like that. Within the EU it could become an interesting problem if some countries did this and others didn't. I suspect that if anyone were to try this there'll be some limitations at first, like you have to have citizenship, or prove legal residency for longer than "…

But that would not be really basic income (which is unconditional). There would be second class of citizens. Something like controlled rent today.

I can't vote in Germany. I'm not a "second class of citizen", I'm literally not a citizen.

Re: Enough with Basic Income

#30
Basic Income (aka universal welfare) is bullshit because it is authoritarian. It depends on throwing people who refuse to hand over a share of the currency they receive in private trade in prison, where they are confined like captive animals, so that the rest of the population is cowed into handing over the demanded amount.

Likewise, the author's arguments for social welfare are bullshit:

>There are two reasons why those four risks call for social state intervention. The first is their high criticality. A risk is critical if it is highly probable: for instance, most of us are bound to get old (dying young, fortunately, remains a small probability). A risk is also critical if, however improbable, it can have a devastating impact on your life: having cancer can ruin you if you don’t have health insurance; losing your job can plunge you into a devastating spiral towards poverty, etc. By definition, criticality is probability times impact.

That does not explain why we have to resort to state intervention.

>The other reason why these risks are not well-covered on the insurance market is that they are all affected by what economists call market imperfections. Moral hazard, a well-known imperfection, “occurs when one person takes more risks because someone else bears the cost of those risks”: it plays a key role when it comes to covering the unemployment risk.

This does not explain why we need state intervention. It sounds like market insurance doesn't want to cover these things for sound economic reasons, so he wants the government to cover it instead (even though it faces all of the same micro-economic problems, like moral hazard).

>Another frequent imperfection on insurance markets is adverse selection: if given the choice, an insurer will refuse to cover those who present signs of a high level of risk, thus providing insurance only to those who eventually don’t need it.

False. An insurer will cover a person who pays a premium that accounts for the risk.

This has the economically necessary effect of encouraging people to get insurance before they get sick and need it.

Post reply on HN