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When does a daughter's duty end?

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Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#21

Post by nugget »

zeroer wrote: post #10

> What exactly was my responsibility as a daughter? Is anyone so terrible that they deserve to die alone? And what would it say about me if I were willing to let that happen? Maybe I just don't get it. The answers to these questions are obvious and straight-forward. I wouldn't think twice about my responsibility to a person who molested me, beat my mom, and then "fucked off", let alone spend 4,000 words bloviating ab…

I think the author recognizes that she had no duty to her father after the abuse she suffered and that nobody she cared about would think twice about her never seeing him or his family again. Reading between the lines I heard the voice of a young girl who will nonetheless always miss the father figure she wanted (so desperately that she was ready to forgive and forget sexual abuse if he would either apologize or lie to her about it) but never had (because he never existed) and these emotions become triggered by any mention of his name. I've had close friends in this situation and the psychology of it can become very frustrating and confusing. In any case the article wasn't about him, it was about herself - probably written, she would say, for others in her situation with less self-awareness or self-confidence - children who should recognize a duty not to an abusive parent but to themselves to achieve some measure of peace and closure in their own lives.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#22

Post by DasIch »

lawpoop wrote: post #12

Are any of the people taking a hard line here ("She owes him nothing!") actually children of abusive parents?

Having the opinion that children don't (or shouldn't) owe their abusive parents anything, isn't in conflict with also having the opinion that they might feel differently. It is about freeing these children from moral and legal obligations and giving them the freedom to act in whatever way makes them happy and allows them to move on.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#23

Post by hga »

lawpoop wrote: post #12

Are any of the people taking a hard line here ("She owes him nothing!") actually children of abusive parents?

As the son of one who's in fact gotten even more abusive this year, as my father got early stage Alzheimer's, which to date is still a minor disability, to more comprehensively take out 57 years worth of grudges against him, to the point of the unforgivable, to the point I'm almost certain she wants him dead if she can arrange it through sins of omission....

Yes, there are people who you're technically that close to, who you are obliged to "honor", to whom you (eventually) owe nothing, and like in this case, who fully deserve to die alone, and most decidedly unloved.

Although I'll draw one distinction here, it's the sins against another that crossed the final line for me, the one where I've sworn to never speak to her again (modulo someone else's life being in danger). Sin against me, that can be not just understood but forgiven, but against an innocent (enough) 3rd party is somehow different.

(And for a bit more pathos, by her order in 20 days I'll be completely out of the loop and living in the house built in 1910 I recently bought and have been remodeling, seeing as I'm the only sibling who's in the same town, have been living with him for the last 5 years on land she alone owns, and is the one most strongly objecting to her treatment of him.)

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#24

Post by jkot »

> But five years later, after he'd isolated my mother by taking her 2,000 miles away from her friends and family

> or why his one-bedroom apartment was deemed suitable for overnights with two girls, but that was the decision. He moved apartments twice more, but never anywhere more spacious, so my sister and I continued to share a bed that unfolded from the living room couch

> In these close quarters, he crossed a line when I was still a child. I'm not prepared to explain the details of the assault.

> and two, memories from ages four through 12 aren't necessarily the most reliable record, and perhaps not everything was as I remembered it.

> The summer before I turned 13, my father got pretty gnarly brain cancer and told me and my sister to fuck off, though he used the Christian phrasing.

I can see a different story. Wife is tired of living away from her parents, so she fabricates domestic abuse to get better deal at divorce. She even poisons his own children against him.

He moves 2000 miles, fights at court, all to be with his children. But for alimony he can not even afford decent apartment. Eventually he gets brain tumor and just gives up.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#25

Post by throwawaycoap »

lawpoop wrote: post #12

Are any of the people taking a hard line here ("She owes him nothing!") actually children of abusive parents?

Yes. My mother is abusive, so I cut her out of my life, and I am markedly happier for it. I certainly don't feel like I owe her anything. My father disagrees with me, which is a source of conflict.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#26

Post by burkaman »

DasIch wrote: post #20
zeroer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are you talking about? Supporting your underage children is a moral responsibility in my book. If you're talking about filial responsibility laws, then yea, you have a point; it's somewhere that I disagree with the law. But fortunately, due to federal medicare support, these laws are rarely enforced. For face-to-face meetings and everything else, shitty family members should be shunned. I wish more peopl…

I'm not entirely sure on the laws in the US but in Germany the law basically considers parents to be responsible for their children and as the parents and children get older, eventually the children become responsible for the parents. I'd imagine it's similar in other countries. A lot of the time there isn't much or any consideration given in case of abusive relationships. Even though I think we both agree on the fac…

About half of US states have laws like this. Sometimes it's a specific financial responsibility for medical bills or burial costs, sometimes it's a more general law like this one: https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/partiv/titlei/cha...

This Massachusetts law does excuse children who were not "reasonably supported" by their parents when they were a minor.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#27

Post by hga »

DasIch wrote: post #20
zeroer wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are you talking about? Supporting your underage children is a moral responsibility in my book. If you're talking about filial responsibility laws, then yea, you have a point; it's somewhere that I disagree with the law. But fortunately, due to federal medicare support, these laws are rarely enforced. For face-to-face meetings and everything else, shitty family members should be shunned. I wish more peopl…

I'm not entirely sure on the laws in the US but in Germany the law basically considers parents to be responsible for their children and as the parents and children get older, eventually the children become responsible for the parents. I'd imagine it's similar in other countries. A lot of the time there isn't much or any consideration given in case of abusive relationships. Even though I think we both agree on the fac…

As I understand it, in the US in general (this area of law is more done at the state than Federal level), unless you take upon yourself the responsibility of taking care of one of your parents, in which case metrics of care come into play, you have absolutely no legal responsibilities to them (separated and/or divorced spouses are a whole nother and much more nasty can of worms).

And those metrics of care most certainly do not include monetary contributions, just seeing that they get medical care, live in habitable lodgings, eat, etc.

Or so is my understanding of Virginia state law, I have a friend who's taken up such a responsibility towards her mother along with another sibling, but her mother generally refuses to keep her appointments with doctors.... My friend is worried about the liability that might arise from this.

burkaman believes otherwise ... but it'll be a cold day in hell before I accept anything WRT my mother like that (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12470409), on the other hand, it wouldn't even need to be enforced by the law if it was my father....

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#28

Post by ab475583 »

zeroer wrote: post #10

> What exactly was my responsibility as a daughter? Is anyone so terrible that they deserve to die alone? And what would it say about me if I were willing to let that happen? Maybe I just don't get it. The answers to these questions are obvious and straight-forward. I wouldn't think twice about my responsibility to a person who molested me, beat my mom, and then "fucked off", let alone spend 4,000 words bloviating ab…

It is phrased in terms of duty and responsibility, which are easy to reject. But the ongoing struggle for some kind of relationship really stems from her own desire for understanding.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#29

Post by burkaman »

hga wrote: post #27
DasIch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure on the laws in the US but in Germany the law basically considers parents to be responsible for their children and as the parents and children get older, eventually the children become responsible for the parents. I'd imagine it's similar in other countries. A lot of the time there isn't much or any consideration given in case of abusive relationships. Even though I think we both agree on the fac…

As I understand it, in the US in general (this area of law is more done at the state than Federal level), unless you take upon yourself the responsibility of taking care of one of your parents, in which case metrics of care come into play, you have absolutely no legal responsibilities to them (separated and/or divorced spouses are a whole nother and much more nasty can of worms). And those metrics of care most certai…

Virginia law is similar to the Massachusetts law in my other comment: http://law.justia.com/codes/virginia/2011/title20/chapter5/2...

You don't have any choice if you are able to support your parents and they are "in necessitous circumstances". However, Virginia is very clear about excusing victims of abuse:

> This section shall not apply if there is substantial evidence of desertion, neglect, abuse or willful failure to support any such child by the father or mother, as the case may be, prior to the child's emancipation or, except as provided hereafter in this section, if a parent is otherwise eligible for and is receiving public assistance or services under a federal or state program.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#30

Post by hga »

burkaman wrote: post #26
DasIch wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely sure on the laws in the US but in Germany the law basically considers parents to be responsible for their children and as the parents and children get older, eventually the children become responsible for the parents. I'd imagine it's similar in other countries. A lot of the time there isn't much or any consideration given in case of abusive relationships. Even though I think we both agree on the fac…

About half of US states have laws like this. Sometimes it's a specific financial responsibility for medical bills or burial costs, sometimes it's a more general law like this one: https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/partiv/titlei/cha... This Massachusetts law does excuse children who were not "reasonably supported" by their parents when they were a minor.

Are these laws actually enforced? In addition to the one you point out, there's a host of loopholes I see in the bare bones law, "when such parent through misfortune and without fault of his own is destitute".
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