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When does a daughter's duty end?

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Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#11

Post by chias »

zeroer wrote: post #10

> What exactly was my responsibility as a daughter? Is anyone so terrible that they deserve to die alone? And what would it say about me if I were willing to let that happen? Maybe I just don't get it. The answers to these questions are obvious and straight-forward. I wouldn't think twice about my responsibility to a person who molested me, beat my mom, and then "fucked off", let alone spend 4,000 words bloviating ab…

I think one of the beautiful things about this story is that it actually describes two contrasting points of view on the matter, and one of them is in agreement with you.

The author spends far fewer words on her sister's perspective (who seems to share the same opinion you do), but I think talking about it less is kind of the whole point -- as you say, the answers are obvious and straight-forward, so there isn't much to go in to. The author herself tries to hold this perspective, but ultimately finds she has a different one. One that includes, among other things, the need to write this story even after "it is finished".

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#13

Post by chias »

lawpoop wrote: post #12

Are any of the people taking a hard line here ("She owes him nothing!") actually children of abusive parents?

This is an intriguing question.

I remember reading research some years ago that concludes humans are incredibly bad at predicting how they would feel in a situation that they have never been in, and the accuracy of the prediction had zero correlation with how strongly the subject was convinced.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#14

Post by Intermernet »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #4

No one owes an abusive person anything. Helping them to continue evil games isn't beneficial to anyone. Family should be held to at least the same standard as friends. As far as I'm concerned, anyone playing the family card gets minus three on the dice roll.

The human instinct in me agrees completely.

Having said that, as someone who is both an atheist, and someone who has had family members killed by another person, I have had both the time, and the rare circumstance to think about this a lot.

I've become aware of the fact that we need to forgive, despite whatever has wronged us. This is the only possible way to prevent the cycle of hate breeding hate.

I know it sounds like a defeatist point of view, but it's actually a multi-generational view. It's also a view of acceptance, and one that holds that no matter what has been done to you, you will hold true to the tenet of forgiveness.

Possibly the most important thing for humans of the modern age to realize is that life deals you a random hand. Any actions that perpetuate this unfairness to the next generation or beyond are wrong, despite how right they may feel.

This is probably the only path that conscious evolution can take that doesn't continue the current cycle of hatred breeding hatred.

Sorry to sound like a hippy, but it took me over a decade to arrive at this conclusion after a whole lot of nasty stuff happening. Hopefully you will never need to go through that process, and will take my viewpoint as a valid piece of anecdata.

TL;DR: despite what other people do to you, it's in the best interests of humanity if you show forgiveness, but do all you can that it never happens to another person.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#15

Post by DasIch »

zeroer wrote: post #10

> What exactly was my responsibility as a daughter? Is anyone so terrible that they deserve to die alone? And what would it say about me if I were willing to let that happen? Maybe I just don't get it. The answers to these questions are obvious and straight-forward. I wouldn't think twice about my responsibility to a person who molested me, beat my mom, and then "fucked off", let alone spend 4,000 words bloviating ab…

The problem is that the law tends to disagree on that one.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#16

Post by wruza »

Intermernet wrote: post #14
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #4

No one owes an abusive person anything. Helping them to continue evil games isn't beneficial to anyone. Family should be held to at least the same standard as friends. As far as I'm concerned, anyone playing the family card gets minus three on the dice roll.

The human instinct in me agrees completely. Having said that, as someone who is both an atheist, and someone who has had family members killed by another person, I have had both the time, and the rare circumstance to think about this a lot. I've become aware of the fact that we need to forgive, despite whatever has wronged us. This is the only possible way to prevent the cycle of hate breeding hate. I know it sounds…

I've read a wikipedia article about gaming theories and robots that play games, and there was a fact: forgiving programs win. But overforgiving lose. Forgive randomly about 5-10%, that's enough to not enter 'hate cycle'. All others must be prosecuted.

As a generally calm person I think it is enough to just freeze your hate and forget about it until [maybe never happening] moment, when you'll bring revenge while losing nothing. Forgiveness is for you to go through it, not to let them go.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#17

Post by Intermernet »

wruza wrote: post #16
Intermernet wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The human instinct in me agrees completely. Having said that, as someone who is both an atheist, and someone who has had family members killed by another person, I have had both the time, and the rare circumstance to think about this a lot. I've become aware of the fact that we need to forgive, despite whatever has wronged us. This is the only possible way to prevent the cycle of hate breeding hate. I know it sounds…

I've read a wikipedia article about gaming theories and robots that play games, and there was a fact: forgiving programs win. But overforgiving lose. Forgive randomly about 5-10%, that's enough to not enter 'hate cycle'. All others must be prosecuted. As a generally calm person I think it is enough to just freeze your hate and forget about it until [maybe never happening] moment, when you'll bring revenge while losin…

Yes, this is where the other shoe drops. We somehow need to trust that the "rules" our society has agreed on for punishment of breaking societal norms are adequate to prevent people from breaking the rules more than once.

We then enter into the realms of how to deal with perpetrators. Isolation vs. rehabilitation vs. eradication.

I prefer rehabilitation over isolation, and both over eradication.

This is one of the roles of government, and thus we enter a whole new world of discussion.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#18

Post by zeroer »

DasIch wrote: post #15
zeroer wrote: post #10

> What exactly was my responsibility as a daughter? Is anyone so terrible that they deserve to die alone? And what would it say about me if I were willing to let that happen? Maybe I just don't get it. The answers to these questions are obvious and straight-forward. I wouldn't think twice about my responsibility to a person who molested me, beat my mom, and then "fucked off", let alone spend 4,000 words bloviating ab…

The problem is that the law tends to disagree on that one.

What exactly are you talking about? Supporting your underage children is a moral responsibility in my book. If you're talking about filial responsibility laws, then yea, you have a point; it's somewhere that I disagree with the law. But fortunately, due to federal medicare support, these laws are rarely enforced. For face-to-face meetings and everything else, shitty family members should be shunned. I wish more people would tell their abusers to take a hike.

Re: When does a daughter's duty end?

#20

Post by DasIch »

zeroer wrote: post #18
DasIch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the law tends to disagree on that one.

What exactly are you talking about? Supporting your underage children is a moral responsibility in my book. If you're talking about filial responsibility laws, then yea, you have a point; it's somewhere that I disagree with the law. But fortunately, due to federal medicare support, these laws are rarely enforced. For face-to-face meetings and everything else, shitty family members should be shunned. I wish more peopl…

I'm not entirely sure on the laws in the US but in Germany the law basically considers parents to be responsible for their children and as the parents and children get older, eventually the children become responsible for the parents. I'd imagine it's similar in other countries.

A lot of the time there isn't much or any consideration given in case of abusive relationships. Even though I think we both agree on the fact that in such a situation any ties both morally and legally should be severed.

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