Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#101

Post by jfoutz » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 7:10 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #97

Kenji wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loathe farmer subsidies. I have no idea why our government gives farmers so much money and so many advantages - nobody in our society really benefits from those incredible spendings and it's a significant fraction of our state budget.

If you don't subsidize farming in rich countries, all your food will come from poor countries. Poor countries without standards for food safety, scruples about burning down rainforest for a few years of fertility, or worker rights or fair wages. You starve poor countries by selling off all of their food to rich countries and making what's left very expensive. What farming is left in rich countries can only possibly b…

There are also some echoes of the world wars. If your country can't feed itself, you can't support an industrial base to fight. Kinda like the highway system.

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#102

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 7:12 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #97

Kenji wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loathe farmer subsidies. I have no idea why our government gives farmers so much money and so many advantages - nobody in our society really benefits from those incredible spendings and it's a significant fraction of our state budget.

If you don't subsidize farming in rich countries, all your food will come from poor countries. Poor countries without standards for food safety, scruples about burning down rainforest for a few years of fertility, or worker rights or fair wages. You starve poor countries by selling off all of their food to rich countries and making what's left very expensive. What farming is left in rich countries can only possibly b…

You might like to know more about Australia's experience with unsubsidizing farmers.

Or, heck, you might not like it. But I think you should know more about it anyway.

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#103

Post by slyall » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 7:17 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #97

Kenji wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loathe farmer subsidies. I have no idea why our government gives farmers so much money and so many advantages - nobody in our society really benefits from those incredible spendings and it's a significant fraction of our state budget.

If you don't subsidize farming in rich countries, all your food will come from poor countries. Poor countries without standards for food safety, scruples about burning down rainforest for a few years of fertility, or worker rights or fair wages. You starve poor countries by selling off all of their food to rich countries and making what's left very expensive. What farming is left in rich countries can only possibly b…

Lovely argument, if only it were true. Your whole argument is all over the place, not least because a lot of food eaten in rich countries is has minimal subsidies already. Why don't you examine the world as it is today rather than how you think it is.

> "You starve poor countries by selling off all of their food to rich countries and making what's left very expensive"

The food produced in the poor country will sell for "the world price", pretty much the same everywhere. Not "cheap" in the rich countries and "expensive" in the poor ones.

I'll assume you are talking about US production. The vast majority of US crops don't need subsidies. They are heavily mechanized on cheap land (middle of Iowa etc) fairly close to markets and with good infrastructure.

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#104

Post by cmarschner » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 7:20 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #96

nyolfen wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kvetching by free trade acolytes about 'real' free market capitalism reminds me strongly of leftists bickering about the USSR not actually being communist.

'real' free market capitalism can't exist because without proper regulation, power/wealth tends to concentrate to a level where the strong ruin the 'free' bit. 'real' communism can't exist (outside small rare communities) because the industrial revolution failed to bring about a post-scarcity economy which was marx's failure of prediction. A post-scarcity economy which eliminates the importance of capital is probably…

Communism failed because of human nature. It is incentives gone wrong. If there is no pressure to become more efficient, or even remain efficient, things will become less efficient and everybody suffers (to the point of starvation). Central planning failed due to complexity of the task.

Free market / small government doesn't work because a) it is inherently unstable due to power laws (rich get richer), b) lots of externalities (e.g. environmental damage) not being priced in, c) lower overall wellfare without government spending on infrastructure etc. In the end, it won't work because of human nature (incentives gone wrong).

So the challenge is to design the system for a society such that incentives are set right, such that a) there is efficient production such that the society can survive in the short run b) it is sustainable such that it and the whole ecosystem can survive in the long run. The past 50-100 years made a lot if progress on a), and the next 50-100 years need to solve b).

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#105

Post by icantdrive55 » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 7:24 AM UTC

Kenji wrote: post #55

cperciva wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A similar, and perhaps more amusing, situation happened in Canada a few years ago. We have a 245.5% import tariff on cheese (why? Because dairy farmers are more important than poor people, apparently) but there was a much lower tax on "food preparations", including packaged pizza toppings. So companies would package up "pizza topping kits" in the USA, import them to Canada as "food preparations"... and then remove th…

I loathe farmer subsidies. I have no idea why our government gives farmers so much money and so many advantages - nobody in our society really benefits from those incredible spendings and it's a significant fraction of our state budget.

I wouldn't mind subsidizing smaller farmers. Larger farmers shouldn't be subsidized.

The government would need to prevent large companies from splitting up, and suddenly overnight you have 20 different small companies. They could beef up legal penalties for any blatant, repeated shinagigans. (Will never happen? The money their lobbyists sending congress is staggering?)

It's a shame how taxpayer money is wasted by administrators/politicians.

In the Bay Area, we have a lot of civil engineering jobs. (Those street repair/pipe jobs that never end, and tie up traffic for years). For years, it seemed like one company got all the work-- Billotti Brothers. (Didn't use their real name, out of fear.)

Even though every project required three bids, by three different companies, it seemed like Billotti got all the work. I used to wonder why. They must be one efficent company?

The Internet arrived, and people had some honest questions, basically, the main one was, "Is this the only company?"

I then noticed news papers started to list the construction companies that lost out on the bids. I looked into these companies. They all seemingly were founded by a Billotti? It looks like they sent their kids to Sacramento to get their contractors licenses? (Very easy to get).

These companies then all bid on projects. The lowest bid won! "Hold up a glass of red wine!"

And of course, they didn't plan this wacky coincidence, commingle assets("I don't need that grader brother."), share workers, work on eachother's projects--never.

And I actually don't have a clue to what they did, but it just doesn't look right. And it all could be legal--I just don't know? Or maybe, all the kids/grandkids just followed in dad's footsteps, and got into construction aspect of civil engineering?

(Edit: If I recall, the whole save the American farmer thing was started when I was a child. It sounded great, but farmers bought up all the small farmers, and the subsidies never stopped. Sorry about going off topic with the Billotti Brothers. I've become so dissalusioned with our society.)

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#106

Post by kleiba » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 7:39 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #102

colechristensen wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't subsidize farming in rich countries, all your food will come from poor countries. Poor countries without standards for food safety, scruples about burning down rainforest for a few years of fertility, or worker rights or fair wages. You starve poor countries by selling off all of their food to rich countries and making what's left very expensive. What farming is left in rich countries can only possibly b…

You might like to know more about Australia's experience with unsubsidizing farmers. Or, heck, you might not like it. But I think you should know more about it anyway.

Why, what experience is it?

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#107

Post by icantdrive55 » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 7:43 AM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #97

Kenji wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loathe farmer subsidies. I have no idea why our government gives farmers so much money and so many advantages - nobody in our society really benefits from those incredible spendings and it's a significant fraction of our state budget.

If you don't subsidize farming in rich countries, all your food will come from poor countries. Poor countries without standards for food safety, scruples about burning down rainforest for a few years of fertility, or worker rights or fair wages. You starve poor countries by selling off all of their food to rich countries and making what's left very expensive. What farming is left in rich countries can only possibly b…

Walk through the produce section at Whole Foods, or Safeway.

Play a little game. Try to find the fruit, or vegatables that arn't produced in the rich country, fair wage country, safety conscious country of Mexico.

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#108

Post by Bakary » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 8:06 AM UTC

liztsai wrote: post #46

This is a simple duty arbitrage play. For anyone wondering what he actually did wrong, there are a few key points to note. Aluminum (and all materials, really) is exported and imported and duties are paid on the basis of the HS code and (if there is a trade agreement to be taken advantage of) certificates of origin (COO) along with the usual shipping docs. China is inclined to tax exports of primary aluminum because…

How do people sniff out these deals?

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#109

Post by vidarh » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 8:11 AM UTC

cmarschner wrote: post #104

colechristensen wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'real' free market capitalism can't exist because without proper regulation, power/wealth tends to concentrate to a level where the strong ruin the 'free' bit. 'real' communism can't exist (outside small rare communities) because the industrial revolution failed to bring about a post-scarcity economy which was marx's failure of prediction. A post-scarcity economy which eliminates the importance of capital is probably…

Communism failed because of human nature. It is incentives gone wrong. If there is no pressure to become more efficient, or even remain efficient, things will become less efficient and everybody suffers (to the point of starvation). Central planning failed due to complexity of the task. Free market / small government doesn't work because a) it is inherently unstable due to power laws (rich get richer), b) lots of ext…

> Central planning failed due to complexity of the task.

Central planning is not a requirement in Marxism or even Marxism-Leninism. Lenin tried it during the civil war, and promptly reversed it in 1921 with the introduction of New Economic Policy, which he indicated he believed needed to be in place for decades (NEP involved re-introducing limited market economy). Stalin then reversed Lenins reforms and went much further shortly after Lenin died.

There are many left wing ideologies including anarchist and communist ideologies that explicitly promote the use of market mechanisms for resource allocation, and many more that take a "whatever works" approach.

The idea of a planned economy is attractive to some because it seems "tidy", while for others it's strongly unappealing because it involves a central authority, which is anathema to a lot of communist ideologies.

Re: Chinese Billionaire Linked to Giant Aluminum Stockpile in Mexican Desert

#110

Post by colechristensen » Sat, Sep 10, 2016, 8:16 AM UTC

slyall wrote: post #103

colechristensen wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't subsidize farming in rich countries, all your food will come from poor countries. Poor countries without standards for food safety, scruples about burning down rainforest for a few years of fertility, or worker rights or fair wages. You starve poor countries by selling off all of their food to rich countries and making what's left very expensive. What farming is left in rich countries can only possibly b…

Lovely argument, if only it were true. Your whole argument is all over the place, not least because a lot of food eaten in rich countries is has minimal subsidies already. Why don't you examine the world as it is today rather than how you think it is. > "You starve poor countries by selling off all of their food to rich countries and making what's left very expensive" The food produced in the poor country will sell f…

It's all over the place because there's a tree of possibilities that's difficult to cover succinctly.

>The food produced in the poor country will sell for "the world price", pretty much the same everywhere. Not "cheap" in the rich countries and "expensive" in the poor ones.

Spending power around the world varies by several orders of magnitude. If there's one "world price" for a crop, that price will be incredibly cheap for rich countries and incredibly expensive for poor ones. Agricultural poor countries will not be able to afford the food they grow.

>a lot of food eaten in rich countries is has minimal subsidies already

In the US, SNAP (food stamps) costs about $75 billion per year and is about 80% of the spending on the farm bill. It's hard to think of that as anything but a subsidy, and it covers more or less all food.

There's a lot more as well...