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VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

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Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#101

Post by jessaustin »

aresant wrote: post #55
mtgx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he's innocent, but I think there were others much higher-up than he was that were aware of this and actively contributed in the fraud. Also, didn't VW do this in Europe, too? Are we to believe this guy in the U.S. is responsible for the emissions cheating in Europe, too? At the very least top EU execs would've been aware of it, even if he was the creator and the evangelist for the device. As far as the…

"Also, didn't VW do this in Europe, too? Are we to believe this guy in the U.S. is responsible for the emissions cheating in Europe, too?" Yes, this is the guy responsible for Europe too. Check out the justice.gov story I linked in parent for richer summary: - He was an employee in Germany from 1983 - 2008 - He led the effort when he realized they couldn't engineer an engine to meet US standards in 2006 - He moved to…

When your boss asks you to move to another nation in order to break that nation's laws, just say "no".

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#102

Post by SilasX »

SwellJoe wrote: post #98
SilasX wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>CO2 is regulated, and so is NOx. Right, but (per parent comment), you misrepresented the basis for the tradeoff behind the regulation -- you justified it by the need to prevent global warming, but the regulation pertained to NO2, not CO2, and satisfying the former typically makes the car less CO2-efficient. So, you were justifying a GW-worsening regulation by the need to lessen GW. (Your point about differing limits…

Sure, there's the argument that we're squeezing the balloon rather than reducing waste; the waste products can be tweaked to produce more or less of one or the other. My point is that as long as diesel continues to be propped up as a "clean" technology, based on fabricated data, we won't see migration to actually cleaner technology. Of course it's cheaper to make vehicles that are either poisonous or cause climate ch…

What part of that do you believe I was disagreeing with?

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#103

Post by jessaustin »

dexterdog wrote: post #72
SwellJoe wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The emissions standards are already a dangerous compromise; we should have been making hard decisions about emissions 20, even 30, years ago...they've gotten stricter because they were disastrously lenient in the past, and we see the results of it. The reasons someone lying about emissions tests are really as bad is it sounds: - If one manufacturer lies, other manufacturers are forced to either lie, or lose customers…

Emissions standards are too lenient? They are too strict if anything. They are as strict as they are mainly because the manufacturers want them that way. It's the best way to keep smaller competitors out of the market and it looks like you're being a good guy to the consumer and environment in the process.

Who are they keeping out? Elio?

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#104

Post by SwellJoe »

SilasX wrote: post #102
SwellJoe wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there's the argument that we're squeezing the balloon rather than reducing waste; the waste products can be tweaked to produce more or less of one or the other. My point is that as long as diesel continues to be propped up as a "clean" technology, based on fabricated data, we won't see migration to actually cleaner technology. Of course it's cheaper to make vehicles that are either poisonous or cause climate ch…

What part of that do you believe I was disagreeing with?

This part:

> you were justifying a GW-worsening regulation by the need to lessen GW.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#106

Post by jessaustin »

kuschku wrote: post #14
sliverstorm wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I'm a little crestfallen that an engineer was first to be charged. By all means, charge the guilty & complicit, but I'm apprehensive the order could aide the narrative VW's execs tried to spin at first ( 'This company-wide scandal was clearly the work of exactly one rouge engineer' ) and help them get out scot-free.

"Engineer" at VW doesn’t mean he wasn’t in a managing position – VW almost exclusively promotes their engineers to managers, and rarely ever hires external talent.

ISTM this policy could ensure that no experienced engineer or manager whose time at other firms taught her to scrupulously follow the law and expect the same of colleagues, could join the team and expose their ongoing schemes. It's kind of like how the mafia works. One doesn't get "made" without a half a dozen murders to one's name, to discourage defection. When a young engineer starts at VW, she wouldn't be shown the truly evil shit, but she might be encouraged to cut a few ethical corners. Once she's done that a few times, they own her.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#107

Post by Reason077 »

yitchelle wrote: post #84

You know what is rather strange. Germany, the home country of VW, has been very quiet when compared to the US and other countries. One one hand, I think that they want to limit the damage. VW is one of the pillars the German economy. On the other hand, VW did admit to breaking the law and the appropriate penalty must be given.

Vehicle emissions standards in Europe are much weaker than those in the US.

Even though a "defeat device" is technically against the rules, it seems unlikely that there will actually be fines or penalties for it. There isn't any environmental regulator in Europe with the same kind of powers that the EPA and CARB have.

Legal action in Europe against VW looks more likely to be from the consumer protection angle. That is, customers were mid-sold vehicles that claimed to be compliant with emissions limits but in fact are not.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#108

Post by DugFin »

trhway wrote: post #56

It is hard to imagine that a large number of reasonable tech and business people would do it that blatantly for so long. After all it isn't Mafia nor government nor banks. I wonder whether it was done as some temporary "fix" back then, just to meet schedule/KPIs/etc., which just naturally became a "feature".

The way I see it, they probably did it somewhat incrementally. To some degree, they've ALWAYS programmed the ECUs "to the test", because isn't that basically what the authorities want? A system that meets standards X, Y, and Z, as verified by a test of X, Y, and Z? What got them into trouble was the fact that ECUs became more and more sophisticated, allowing them to gradually isolate X, Y, and Z into ever-shrinking "islands" of compliance. It was tolerated for so long that both engineering and management probably became accustomed to cheating the test to some degree, so when the standards became even more stringent, they basically saw nothing wrong with creating a special "clean" ECU profile narrowly tailored to the specific parameters of the test procedure. Granted, they knew they were cheating, but I think when you're inside the corporate bubble and everyone's operating on the premise that cheating has always been tolerated on the test, it becomes harder to be the guy that says "this is too much".

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#109

Post by tlogan »

aresant wrote: post #46

This guy isn't the "fall guy" or just a poor engineer hung out to try instead of an exec, he deserves to go to prison based on the material facts of his plea: 1) He was the central figure in engineering the device. 2) He understood exactly what he was doing and made repeated efforts to perpetuate the lie to the government and EPA. 3) He led efforts to damage control and roll out an update to consumers under the guise…

I think he is high enough to be guilty but still a low level that he cannot "lawyer up".

So he seems a perfect person to push for plea bargain so they can build a good case against people actually responsible for this. At least I hope they will try to do that.

But, cynic in me says that this is the end: they will claim this multi-billion dollar scam was architected, coordinated, and executed by him and only him. Move on.

Re: VW engineer pleads guilty to diesel emissions scandal

#110

Post by tlogan »

dv_dt wrote: post #91
agumonkey wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His responsibility is probably above zero, but I'm having a hard time decisions of this kind aren't reviewed by many peers across company layers. Unless he lied about the purpose of his work and nobody could decipher his claims... still odd (reminds me of the Kerviel bank fraud)

If he lied about his work, and none else caught it, it brings up other questions about the integrity of VW vehicles. e.g. How valid are their safety testing results (could someone in the org have submitted vehicles for crash tests that weren't representative of the production config?)

Yes - maybe engineer doing air-bags is doing the same. And also brakes... so on. These engineers are not to be trusted: we need more management oversight.
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