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Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

theguardian.com

271–280 of 454 posts

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong analogy. Newspaper does not offer a service of publishing customer letters. They offer a service of receiving and reading letters on premise that they may choose the letter to be published. It's a different story. If a newspaper published all letters, then government could act on behalf of citizen to protect freedom of speech, by making sure there's no arbitrary censorship of publications.

The relevant detail is that you can indeed censor a publication by adding a rule that says "you can't censor your publication in the following ways". I don't personally use Facebook at least in part because I don't want to use a centralized, censored system, but the fact of the matter is that it's a bad idea (not to mention likely an unconstitutional one) to tell Facebook what they cannot publish and indeed what they…

Facebook is not a newspaper, because it does not produce the content that it makes available - freedom of speech cannot be applied to Facebook itself. FoS applies however to the content producers and limits the terms of contract that Fb may offer to them, by banning the arbitrary censorship (the distinction between artwork and offensive content is arbitrary and decided by Fb moderators). Also, by saying "unconstitutional" which constitution do you apply to it? It's multinational and has the business in many countries - each one can regulate Fb within its sovereignty.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#272
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird because you seem to be advocating against government censorship, while also advocating in favour of Facebook censoring things. Why is one good and the other bad?

There is free competition between social networking sites, while governments are definitionally regional monopolies. Facebook can publish what they wish to publish, and not publish what they fundamentally disagree with. They are a private entity. That is pro-freedom, not anti-.

I'm not sure it is accurate to describe a situation where two companies have a couple billion users between them and the rest don't come close as "free competition". Facebook and Twitter compete, sort of, between themselves. Does anyone really compete with them?

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#273

It is kind of scary to see how countries are powerless when it comes to Facebook. I know that this article and the whole discussion here is not about that but I get a eery feeling reading about it.

Theoretically, the PM could find herself having trouble with her social media reach in the lead-up to the next election.

The primary criticism that gets leveled toward Facebook is about privacy, but I think the degree of control they can exercise over communication is the more worrying issue.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#274
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. Government should have no say what a private entity can/can't do in their walled garden. The fact that over a billion people use it is a different issue.

A private individual, sure. I'll accept that argument. But a corporation should have no such leeway. Companies exist for the mutual benefit of the citizens, and their shareholders. Just because we've lost that sense of ethic doesn't make it not true. Now, the predominant view is "A company can fuck over whomever they want, as long as it lies within the confines of the law", is preposterous. Public corporations are al…

Corporations are just a group of people with legal status. How many people beyond which you won't accept that argument? 1? 10?

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#275
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird because you seem to be advocating against government censorship, while also advocating in favour of Facebook censoring things. Why is one good and the other bad?

There is free competition between social networking sites, while governments are definitionally regional monopolies. Facebook can publish what they wish to publish, and not publish what they fundamentally disagree with. They are a private entity. That is pro-freedom, not anti-.

> There is free competition between social networking sites

In theory, yes. In practice, absolutely not.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#276
Posters may find it informative to review Tom Egeland's response (in Norwegian, so a translation site may be helpful).

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1203560296...

Is the collection of the other 6 or 7 photos still available? - my google-fu has not found them.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#277
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A private individual, sure. I'll accept that argument. But a corporation should have no such leeway. Companies exist for the mutual benefit of the citizens, and their shareholders. Just because we've lost that sense of ethic doesn't make it not true. Now, the predominant view is "A company can fuck over whomever they want, as long as it lies within the confines of the law", is preposterous. Public corporations are al…

Corporations are just a group of people with legal status. How many people beyond which you won't accept that argument? 1? 10?

Not the OP but:

A corporation crosses the line when it has a single person who is protected from the legal actions of the corporation by statue (i.e., a shareholder). At this point the quasi-libertarian theory of a corporation as "just a bunch of guys" completely breaks down as there is a special legal protection for shareholders.

A corporation isn't a partnership. A partnership is just a group of people who have agreed to do business together. All of them are jointly legally liable for the criminal actions and liabilities of the corporation.

A corporation, on the other hand, has legal protection for shareholders. A VC can bankroll eMurder.com and the VC isn't liable when the officers of the corporation go on a shooting spree. The options are : Investors get no special legal protection, and creditors and the law can pursue them and their personal assets for the liabilities and crimes of the corporation OR a corporation really is a special instrument of the State, and only has particular standing because we as a society believe the corporate veil provides social benefits.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#278
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is false. There is no such law that requires nothing but ruthless profit optimization. I invite you to disprove my claim by pointing to a relevant piece of legislation.

First, your "claim" is loaded with a false question to begin with. Laws can either be created (legislature), or interpreted (judicial). The basis of corporate law has been founded upon the judicial branch, as well as the requirement to shareholders. Dodge v. Ford Motor Co. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co . (1919) eBay v. Newark https://h2o.law.harvard.edu/cases/3472 (2010) Disproven.

(I'm not a lawyer so take this all with a pinch of salt.)

Fiduciary duty is not profit optimization. It basically means you need to be responsible with the company's money. You can't spend it on hookers (well, unless that's your companies business). It's basically a "don't waste money" rule, not "earn lots of money". Basically, the idea with corporations is that the shareholders own everything and the management is taking care of all the assets; it's not the management's so the management has to be careful not to waste money.

For example, legal guardians have a fiduciary duty.

> Dodge v. Ford Motor Co.

"The Michigan Supreme Court held that Henry Ford could not lower consumer prices and raise employee salaries. In its opinion, the discretion of the directors is to be exercised in the choice of means to attain that end, and does not extend to the reduction of profits or the nondistribution of profits among stockholders in order to benefit the public, making the profits of the stockholders incidental thereto. Because this company was in business for profit, Ford could not turn it into a charity. This was compared to a spoliation of the company's assets. The court therefore upheld the order of the trial court requiring that directors declare an extra dividend of $19.3 million. It said the following." (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.)

"Among non-experts, conventional wisdom holds that corporate law requires boards of directors to maximize shareholder wealth. This common but mistaken belief is almost invariably supported by reference to the Michigan Supreme Court's 1919 opinion in Dodge v. Ford Motor Co.[5]

Dodge is often misread or mistaught as setting a legal rule of shareholder wealth maximization. This was not and is not the law. Shareholder wealth maximization is a standard of conduct for officers and directors, not a legal mandate. The business judgment rule [which was also upheld in this decision] protects many decisions that deviate from this standard. This is one reading of Dodge. If this is all the case is about, however, it isn’t that interesting.[6]"

> eBay v. Newark

"When eBay refused to sell, Jim and Craig deliberated with outside counsel for six months about how to respond. Finally, on January 1, 2008, Jim and Craig, acting in their capacity as directors, responded by (1) adopting a rights plan that restricted eBay from purchasing additional craigslist shares and hampered eBay's ability to freely sell the craigslist shares it owned to third parties, (2) implementing a staggered board that made it impossible for eBay to unilaterally elect a director to the craigslist board, and (3) seeking to obtain a right of first refusal in craigslist's favor over the craigslist shares eBay owns by offering to issue one new share of craigslist stock in exchange for every five shares over which any craigslist stockholder granted a right of first refusal in craigslist's favor. As to the third measure, Jim and Craig accepted the right of first refusal [7] offer in their capacity as craigslist stockholders and received new shares; eBay, however, declined the offer, did not receive new shares, and had its ownership in craigslist diluted from 28.4% to 24.9%."

" eBay asserts that, in approving and implementing each measure, Jim and Craig, as directors and controlling stockholders, breached the fiduciary duties they owe to eBay as a minority stockholder of the corporation."

I didn't understand this completely but it looks like craigslist was trying to restrict eBay's usage of the stock and that's a breach of fiduciary duty because eBay is a minority shareholder of craigslist and so craigslist is harming shareholders by their actions.

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#279

What was the PM's motivation to make the post in the first place?

"Yes, your honor, but I believe the jury should know what the victim was wearing that night."

Oh please. I am honestly curious. Why is the PM of Norway posting a graphic photograph of the Vietnam War?

Re: Facebook deletes Norway PM's post as 'napalm girl' row escalates

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with this image? Of course it should be allowed. I see no difference with David by Michelangelo, for example. Banning all nudity is just stupid censorship that has no moral ground.

I believe that a lot of conservative people would find a picture like that offensive. We have to keep in mind that Facebook's audience is in the billions.

People who find nudity offensive are utterly delusional.
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