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Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

theobjectivestandard.com

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Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#11
The problem with a lack of net neutrality is not how ISPs relate to their paying customers, it's how they relate to content providers. That's not to say that I agree with the arguments in the article; I find them extremely distasteful, although there is some reasoning behind them, based on ideas of morality that I disagree with but don't find completely invalid.

I'll outline the scenario that worries me. Comcast sends all internet data as second-tier data, unless the content provider pays Comcast to provide it as first-tier data. The difference between the two is small, say one or two tenths of a second in delivery time. The end user doesn't notice a difference. But, as Google has found, the extra tenth of a second has huge impacts on conversion for websites. So, Comcast effectively offers the same experience to users, but now also holds a huge sword over the head of content provides. Effectively, it is in an excellent position to leverage its ISP monopoly to create a massive extortion racket to content providers. And the magical free market isn't going to push back against Comcast, because the experience for the end-user has not noticeably suffered.

It's quite possible that under such a system the internet could actually be free, because it's subsidized by corporate content provider partners, and charging the content consumers becomes obsolete, although I doubt Comcast would suddenly drop a revenue source. However, it also raises the barrier to entry for small content providers, because they don't have the spare cash to pay Comcast for non-sub-standard conversion rates. In a (weasel) word, it's less democratic. Not to mention, Comcast can sustain its monopoly on ISPs by giving even shittier third-tier access to its competitors. The end result is a less-free internet, Comcast enriching themselves by abusing a monopoly, and all of this done without Comcast delivering a higher-quality internet to users. I think I'll take my stupid pipes, please.

I agree with the author insofar as I accept that his conclusion is consistent with Objectivism, although it's still debatable if owning the wires means owning the data that goes through the wires. Fortunately for me, I'm a pragmatist, not an Objectivist, and I think the loss of property rights (if any!) is perfectly acceptable for the benefits to expression and communication.

Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#12
post #6

> Were it not for net neutrality, a start-up ISP might compete against Comcast by configuring its fledgling network to favor Bit Torrent’s peer-to-peer data packets, thereby earning it the business of serious movie downloaders without having to match or exceed Comcast in expensive infrastructure. Really? If someone advertised their ISP as 'BitTorrent-friendly' they would have to contend with the MPAA, RIAA, BSA, etc…

So it seems your problem is with the initial government intervention? So in order to fix that we need more?

I'm not really offering solutions. I'm pointing out the lack of a decent evaluation of how we got here and how we can fix it. Almost all net neutrality discussions are people that want to prevent large ISPs from enacting draconian restrictions on their networks vs the people that don't want any government regulation of anything. There doesn't seem to be much constructive discussion. Just people taking traditional 'liberal-vs-conservative' positions and digging in to duke it out on the canned talking points that traditionally follow.

The people that say "networks are private property and I don't want no government in my private property" are forgetting that most of those networks were built during periods of guaranteed profits (AT&T) or just regional monopolies (cable companies). It's not like these companies were little mom-n-pop shops that were built from nothing with no help from anyone, and now the 'big bad government' is coming in to kill them off by helping their competitors. These companies where weened off the government's teat.

The people that want to bring in the government to restrict the internet are forgetting that there is a whole can of worms that will be opened if the government starts getting their hands into the internet. Sure it could be just 'net neutrality' regulation now, but what you picture as what 'net neutrality' should be will not be what it looks like once an actual bill gets passed. Not to mention all the attempts to tack on 'child porn' filtering and crap (possibly creating some 'Internet Filter Czar' position in the Executive Branch).

Even solutions like: "the internet should be like the highways; built and run with tax-payer money." So the government now runs the major backbones of the internet in the US. This means:

  1. Companies can easily become ISPs by hooking into
     the backbone at reasonable rates
  2. Congress will be salivating to pass bills to put filters
     on these backbones to 'protect the children.'
  3. The networks will be less secure as routers, servers,
     etc are administered by incompetent administrators that
     only have their positions because they know how to play
     the government bureaucracy politicking games better than
     more technically skilled colleagues.
The average consumer is stuck between a rock (the government) and a hard place (large corporations with vested interests). Neither solution is particularly palatable, and it's naive to say that one solution or the other will save us from all the evil in the world.

Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#13
There is one critical flaw with the reasoning of all these opponents of Net Neutrality. They claim the ISPs should have the right to regulate traffic to remain 'competitive', and that users who aren't happy with the regulation can simply choose another ISP. That's how the free market works.

Except this isn't really a free market. In most locations, consumers only have a single choice for broadband access (or two at most). Most ISPs have a regional monopoly. So if your local cable provider decides to charge you extra to access wikipedia, you're SOL.

You can't appeal to the 'free market' when there really isn't one. Your only choice is to create one, which is exactly what net neutrality aims to do.

Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#14
Just because someone owns property does not mean that they have unending rights to do with that property what they wish. Go buy a piece of land in the middle of the city, build a giant bonfire, and see what happens. Due to state "regulation," your landlord can't just barge in on his/her property whenever he/she wishes. Laws like this have existed to protect the weak or meek for ages.

In a sense, "property" does not exist. Property only exists because laws exist to protect it. If the country you live in is invaded by a more powerful nation, how much do you think your "property" matters at that time? It's just a set of limited rights granted to you by the government, not unlimited license to do whatever you wish.

Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#16
post #2

TLDR: This is exactly what you'd expect ultracapitalist Objectivists to say: ISPs should be allowed to do whatever they want because their networks are private property.

That might be true but it's irrelevant. I'd have no objection if you left out the introductory clause. http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Actually I'm not disagreeing. I'm saying that you probably don't need to read this (long-winded) article because it simply reiterates a well-known and well-worn position.

Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#17
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ISPs networks are not (totally) private property though. They are in many cases publicly subsidized, and they operate with a state-backed grant of monopoly or oligopoly within each region. IMHO, regardless of what you think of Objectivism or libertarianism, the standard libertarian critique of government interference does not apply to net neutrality. It would apply if telecom were actually a free market and if telcos…

I don't think they fail to see the distinction, but instead of further cementing government control they in fact argue that telcos should lose their government privileges and be left to compete in the market. Sure at first they will have significant advantages but as time goes on competition should be able to function.

Yeah, because if I have a problem with my ISP, I'll just head to the bank, borrow a few hundred billion and build my own backbone.

Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#18
post #6

> Were it not for net neutrality, a start-up ISP might compete against Comcast by configuring its fledgling network to favor Bit Torrent’s peer-to-peer data packets, thereby earning it the business of serious movie downloaders without having to match or exceed Comcast in expensive infrastructure. Really? If someone advertised their ISP as 'BitTorrent-friendly' they would have to contend with the MPAA, RIAA, BSA, etc…

So it seems your problem is with the initial government intervention? So in order to fix that we need more?

No what we need to do is enforce the terms on which that initial government intervention happened. And that is that in return for the government granting you monopolies subsidies and a lot of rights you agree to promote the public interest.

Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#19
post #11

The problem with a lack of net neutrality is not how ISPs relate to their paying customers, it's how they relate to content providers. That's not to say that I agree with the arguments in the article; I find them extremely distasteful, although there is some reasoning behind them, based on ideas of morality that I disagree with but don't find completely invalid. I'll outline the scenario that worries me. Comcast send…

It's worth saying, that if the ISPs are taxing the content providers, and are totally free to do so on a discriminatory basis...

We actually have a much-less-free market for everyone except the ISPs, who operate in a totally-not-free market to begin with.

Way to go, free marketeers. Don't let those details fool you, just stick with the ideology.

Re: Net Neutrality: Toward a Stupid Internet

#20
post #2

TLDR: This is exactly what you'd expect ultracapitalist Objectivists to say: ISPs should be allowed to do whatever they want because their networks are private property.

That's not an argument and it adds very little to the discussion. I don't know why you're being voted up.

If you disagree with his points, state your reasons.

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