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Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

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Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#381

Post by untog »

__s wrote: post #268
mrtron wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't know this was a thing. Can you explain why it would be a problem?

Shun women because if I casually mention saying something about having talked to a non male while my wife wasn't around the wife'll beat me. If I don't say anything about talking to non males then I'm hiding things, which never goes well if wife ever meets a non male coworker who doesn't describe me as super shy

I hope you're being hyperbolic. I've gotten lunch with female coworkers and mentioned it to my partner without issue. If your wife considers it to be unreasonable I would look at why that is the case, rather than suggest the advice given is wrong.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#382

Post by morgtheborg »

flukus wrote: post #367
morgtheborg wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can be stressful and hostel to everyone equally. I believe that is the case. Eh, none of the men seem particularly perturbed by the term bitch, slut, whore, etc until I point out it makes me uncomfortable. None of them seem particularly disturbed by the subpar maternity leave until, again, I bring it up. None of them seem particularly concerned that they are assumed to be technical, and I am assumed to be admini…

> Eh, none of the men seem particularly perturbed by the term bitch, slut, whore, etc until I point out it makes me uncomfortable. There are plenty of pejoratives for men too, they are likely using those to refer to each other. >None of them seem particularly disturbed by the subpar maternity leave until, again, I bring it up. Did you ask about the paternity leave? > I literally was turned down from a job I later lea…

> There are plenty of pejoratives for men too, they are likely using those to refer to each other.

The words I listed were the ones they were primarily using to put down one another. I cannot even imagine the man who would use those terms in the workplace in America aimed at a woman and expect to keep his job. With men, it's often apologized for and then hushed under the guise of "harmless joking". I'm not in a frat house. I'm at work.

> Did you ask about the paternity leave?

Yes. I made the point that in order to not create incentives to hire men over women we needed to create an equal workplace where the business "harm" caused by a pregnancy in someone's family was equal regardless of gender. Otherwise, honestly, there's quite a good business reason to hire a man over a woman, all other things being equal.

> You don't think plenty of men would have been uncomfortable in the same situation?

Do I think that I was turned down from the job partially because of their assumption a woman would be less comfortable in that environment than a man? Yes. Considering the gender ratios in those environments, I'd consider that a reasonable assumption.

I'd find it difficult to believe the average man's discomfort rivals the average woman's discomfort in that setting.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#383

Post by morgtheborg »

refurb wrote: post #355
morgtheborg wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can be stressful and hostel to everyone equally. I believe that is the case. Eh, none of the men seem particularly perturbed by the term bitch, slut, whore, etc until I point out it makes me uncomfortable. None of them seem particularly disturbed by the subpar maternity leave until, again, I bring it up. None of them seem particularly concerned that they are assumed to be technical, and I am assumed to be admini…

Of your three examples, I can think of many woman who wouldn't care about the first two at all. They throw around bitch, slut, whore without concern and they aren't having kids so they don't care about the maternity leave. Those first two seem more like your personal preferences than something universally despised by women.

Your argument is that it would "stressful and hostile to everyone equally" to casually use sexist language or not provide maternity leave?

I'm not suggesting an "all women" situation here, but I am claiming all three examples would be significantly more stressful and hostile to the average woman than the average man.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#384

Post by shutItBrad »

generic_user wrote: post #364
Mz wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appear to be the top ranked woman on HN. I have a Certificate in GIS. I have dealt with quite a lot of crap that I am confident is due to my gender. I am aware that men are not welcomed with open arms merely for being male. But women can do everything "right" and find it still isn't enough. It is a genuine and frustrating problem for me personally. It is a problem space I have worked on for some years. I am sorry y…

Men also have a lot of 'crap' that is because of there gender also. Lost jobs and being looked over for promotions for the explicit reason that there was an artificial quota for people with a Female genitalia to fill certain positions. Regardless of how unskilled or uninterested they were in the work. I am sure many Men have had this brutal injustice perpetrated against them. There is a level of aggressiveness and bu…

Add this to your men hardship list: if I find out any men-inists work for me, I will fire them. Not a culture fit.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#385

Post by flukus »

morgtheborg wrote: post #383
refurb wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of your three examples, I can think of many woman who wouldn't care about the first two at all. They throw around bitch, slut, whore without concern and they aren't having kids so they don't care about the maternity leave. Those first two seem more like your personal preferences than something universally despised by women.

Your argument is that it would "stressful and hostile to everyone equally" to casually use sexist language or not provide maternity leave? I'm not suggesting an "all women" situation here, but I am claiming all three examples would be significantly more stressful and hostile to the average woman than the average man.

> I'm not suggesting an "all women" situation here, but I am claiming all three examples would be significantly more stressful and hostile to the average woman than the average man.

So you're saying women need to be treated differently? Sounds a bit sexist.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#386

Post by Senji »

netule wrote: post #370
hobs wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded, I have never worked at a company where talking to the HR team was a good idea for any reason. If you are thinking about it you should probably seek a lawyer because they are not your friend.

Agreed, HR exists to protect the company, nothing else. Nothing related to gender, but I once had a coworker at a mid-sized company angrily threaten me in his cubicle: "if we weren't in the office, I would slit your throat." I immediately went to HR about it and literally the first thing they asked me after I told them was "can anyone corroborate your story?" I couldn't since nobody overheard us, so I was screwed. It…

You should have talked to the police too.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#387

Post by PavlovsCat »

wpietri wrote: post #145
rcba wrote: post #6

How active should men be in actually helping to solve the gender diversity problem vs sitting on the sidelines and sharing the work of women who are solving the problem? I've been working on an initiative to encourage more of my male peers to do more to make their organisations more diverse and was recently criticised by a female software engineer who told me that I shouldn't "come into a feminist space" where "women…

As a guy myself, I am in favor of guys being active. Men, after all, embody most of the problem; leaving it to women to solve is putting a burden on people who are already getting a raw deal. But yes, guys should be aware that their common instinct to come in and dominate a thing will often not be well received. Partly because dudes pushing to dominate is how the problem was created and is maintained. Partly because…

An emphatic male absolutely does know more about what "women are going through" than, say, a narcissistic female just parroting lines she saw work for others, ripping other females to shreds as she strives for power. If you honestly have not ever seen that, keep your eyes peeled.

If anything, I'd say privilege based on treating people as abstract monoliths and having double standards, and being unfair and abusive towards others did cause and causes "the problem", one a symptom of which you call "the" problem.

You know nothing about what others think about, what they know or don't know. I grew up with mostly female friends, always loved to work in mostly female teams and am at the moment, too, and one of my proudest childhood moments was a 13 year old female friend telling 9 year old me that I'm "the only one I can really talk to around here". I believe in being fair irrespective of person, and being supportive to ANYONE who needs support, and that besides making them laugh surely is one of my qualities my female friends would not ever want to miss in me. If I was as I am to them because they're a woman, that would be regression, plain and simple. For me people are persons first, things like gender and age second, and people who think there is "being a woman" versus "being a human who happens to be female" I want to have nothing to do with. I feel exactly the same way about men who do the reverse.

Anyways, crawling on one's knees because of identity politics is BS. Don't interrupt others nilly-willy, listen, don't presume, don't be rash. Don't trample on "small ones", be a compassionate person and show it. This has nothing to do with where you are or who you're dealing with, and nothing to do with gender. It's called being a good person, and this talk about empathy is really like blind people talking about colors. Why not simply recognize the psychological make-up of people by dealing with them, not by gender or nationality or other statistical probabilities.

To sum up, not only is something way better, way more thorough and honest possible, it's being done every day, all the time. It's just those people quietly enjoy being decent to each other.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#388

Post by junke »

wrsh07 wrote: post #43
houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

Ask everyone you work with for coffee. Please don't omit the women. I've mentored new hires, and in that context it's easy to say, "hey can we get tea and talk about how the first few weeks have been?"

This put this recent article in a new light: "Everything i am afraid might happen if i ask new acquaintances to get coffee."

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/everything-i-am-...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12334272

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#389

Post by wpietri »

throwanem wrote: post #306
__s wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shun women because if I casually mention saying something about having talked to a non male while my wife wasn't around the wife'll beat me. If I don't say anything about talking to non males then I'm hiding things, which never goes well if wife ever meets a non male coworker who doesn't describe me as super shy

There is a name for this. The name is isolation. Abusers do it. Mine did. Other things, too. I'm sure she still does. But not to me; I left. I can't help whoever's stuck with her now, and I'm sure there is someone. But I could help myself. Perhaps you could as well. Others helped me, too. Perhaps someone will do the same for you. If you want to hear from me, let me know, and I'll get in touch. You need not suffer thi…

Exactly my thought.

For anybody interested in the topic of abuse, I strongly recommend, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men": http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/042519...

It is the single most astute book I have read. The author, a domestic violence counselor for men, mostly had clients who were court-ordered to attend his sessions. He spent a decade listening to vast amounts of self-justifying bullshit and then wrote a thoughtful, precise, and clear breakdown of why and how abusers work and how the abused can get out of it.

At this point I've given away 15 or so copies. Some to people who needed it urgently, and many to people who just wanted to learn more. Ignorance gives abusers cover, and I honestly think this book should be required reading for every high schooler so that they can spot and call out patterns of abuse.

Re: Introducing “Ask a Female Engineer”

#390

Post by wpietri »

houselouse wrote: post #19

> Invite women you work with for coffee No chance of this being misinterpreted. Invite women you work with for coffee and ask what they like or dislike about their day-to-day. If they mention concerns or problems they’re having, ask if there’s any way you could help make it better.

If that's really a worry, invite 3 women. That will make it clear that it's not a date, and it'll be much more likely that they'll feel safe talking about gender issues if they know they'll have backup and confirmation.
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