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What's next for Apache OpenOffice

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Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#31

Post by ZenoArrow »

SwellJoe wrote: post #29
Grishnakh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because you like competition and you want to knock that "leading FOSS office suite" off its perch. So, basically spite. The real competitor is Microsoft Office; that's what all FOSS software is competing against in trying to get people comfortable with using FOSS software and stop being locked-into proprietary software and file formats. You're actually harming the FOSS cause by promoting factionalism and fragmentati…

> The real competitor is Microsoft Office Is it? I haven't used any desktop office suite in more than five years, at least. I would think the real competitor is Google Docs, and I don't see any current credible path forward that brings OO or Libre Office to the web.

> "I would think the real competitor is Google Docs"

If you're happy with GD, that's cool, but I personally don't see much reason to switch.

As for bringing open-source office suites online, it is happening:

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/LibreOffice_...

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#32

Post by mindcrime »

dragonwriter wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, if you don't want to work on AOO, there's probably not much I can say to convince you. And that's fine. No hard feelings. So the rest of this really isn't even for you, it's for other people who are reading and who don't already have their minds made up: Why would I want to waste my time working on a has-been office suite when I can work on the leading FOSS office suite, which is LibreOffice? Because you…

> Because you like competition and you want to knock that "leading FOSS office suite" off its perch. If I prefer competition among OSS office suites, and am unsatisfied with the leader, why would the competitor I choose be the one that's basically a trailing, less maintained for several years, version of the same codebase as the leader, rather than something that's both more genuinely different and has been more acti…

Maybe you wouldn't. Maybe you just feel some comfort / familiarity with the ASF, who knows? I'll freely admit, all of this is pretty subjective and pretty personal.

My take is, as long as you're contributing to something OSS, you're doing something laudable. I don't care if you contribute to AOO, LO, Calligra, a new fork of KOffice, GNumeric, or something else.

Of course I'd like to see people chip in with AOO, but I can't sit here and tell you there are a lot of objective reasons to decide to do so. I just hope there's some non-zero number of people who do make that choice, regardless of their reasoning.

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#33

Post by mindcrime »

woodandsteel wrote: post #28

AOO supporters want to get more developers working on it. But I think whether or not new developers decide to do that is going to depend greatly, for most of them, on whether or not they think AOO is going to succeed in the future. So let me ask the AOO supporters, where do you predict that AOO will be in a year from now, and two years? And give some specifics, like code clean-up, infrastructure, security fixes, new…

So let me ask the AOO supporters, where do you predict that AOO will be in a year from now, and two years? And give some specifics, like code clean-up, infrastructure, security fixes, new features, and so on.

I'll only address the things I have knowledge of / intend to work on.

I am working now on getting a dedicated server setup for running code analysis tools / fuzzing tools /etc. against the AOO code-base. My plan is to make this an automated process that runs frequently (although the exact details remain TBD) and delivers reports that the AOO developers can use to improve code quality and security. It is my hope that this kind of initiative can help make a major improvement in the quality of the releases.

From a feature standpoint, I have some ideas regarding integrating Calc more with the "Big Data" ecosystem, which - coincidentally - largely revolves around the ASF. A lot of the ideas aren't fully fleshed out yet, but I am picturing Calc as a front-end for working with various analytics processing engines. I think that at one time there was an Uno based R integration for Calc, so I'd also like to look at where that stands and see if that could use some work.

Also, I hope that we can dramatically improve the build system and associated documentation to make it markedly easier for new developers to grab the code, produce builds and get going. But I don't know that that's an area I personally will have much time to work on, plus there are other people working on that anyway.

I think we'd all like to see more frequent releases, so definitely put that down as a goal at least.

I have some other random ideas percolating in my head as well, but if I talk about them, somebody will interpret that as a commitment to deliver them, and since I probably can't justify making that kind of commitment right now, I'll stop here.

And finally, if a year from now, AOO is far behind what you have predicted, will you still keep telling people that AOO is going to be a success? And ditto for two years from now.

I don't tell people that AOO is or isn't going to be a "success". It already is a success by many standards, and not so much by others. I don't think looking at it in such binary terms is productive. As long as there is one person using the code, and one person hacking on the code (and the might be one and the same) then I'm all for it.

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#34

Post by pietroalbini »

mindcrime wrote: post #3

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a contributor to AOO, albeit one who has not been as active as I should have been in the past. Which makes me part of the problem. But that aside... Rumors of the demise of AOO are very premature. Some internal speculation aside, there's no particular reason to think the project will be shut down. Yes, the ASF board wants to see certain things happen, but none of them are thin…

If you, as an AOO contributor, prefer the Apache license and you want to contribute to that project is fine, that's your free choice :)

What I'm worried about is the end user, the one who only knows "openoffice is the alternative to ms office", and is stuck with an unmaintained product.

A person I know told me a few months ago "Hey, openoffice don't render square roots in an acceptable way, should I go back to ms office?", and I had to explain he was using a mostly-abandoned software and he should switch to libreoffice because that bug was fixed months ago in there.

You're maintaining a software for end users, not for the HN population: they don't care about the Apache license or the GPL, but they care to have a working piece of software :)

I really hope the OOo trademark is handed to TDF, not because of license wars, but because that's the better thing for the users of AOO/LO.

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#35

Post by arglwarg »

Grishnakh wrote: post #24
cesarb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Libreoffice (LO) and Apache Open Office (AOO) both existed at a point in time of the fork, when a portion of the governed (in this case the developers) withheld their assent to the impositions by AOO and started LO. I'm sorry, but this is wrong. LibreOffice was started almost a year before AOO. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#History for details.

That's basically quibbling, though the OP did err in his history a bit. AOO existed before that point too, it just wasn't called AOO and it wasn't part of Apache; it was run by Oracle, and before that, Sun. It was still the same project before Oracle dropped it on Apache. The portion of the governed were mad at the impositions by Oracle , not Apache, and started LO. A year later, with almost no developers left and al…

> That's basically quibbling, though the OP did err in his history a bit. AOO existed before that point too, it just wasn't called AOO and it wasn't part of Apache; it was run by Oracle, and before that, Sun.

So OOo had: 1/ a different governance 2/ different copyright owners 3/ a different license 4/ different sponsors 5/ different contributors 6/ a different name than AOO, but other than that it was totally the same?

"Other than that" being "own the trademark" here and only that. Just for fun, AOO didnt even use the trademarked term itself.

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#36

Post by sqeaky »

mindcrime wrote: post #11
Grishnakh wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We're starting a new, more focused recruiting effort to recruit developers to the cause. Perhaps you yourself have given some thought to working on an OSS office suite? Why would I want to waste my time working on a has-been office suite when I can work on the leading FOSS office suite, which is LibreOffice? Why would I want to commit my time to a project that seems to only seems to exist because of a licensing disp…

Ultimately, if you don't want to work on AOO, there's probably not much I can say to convince you. And that's fine. No hard feelings. So the rest of this really isn't even for you, it's for other people who are reading and who don't already have their minds made up: Why would I want to waste my time working on a has-been office suite when I can work on the leading FOSS office suite, which is LibreOffice? Because you…

> Why should someone else's decisions influence what you decide to work on?

Because you want to do something impactful that others will use and get benefit from.

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#37

Post by bobajeff »

SwellJoe wrote: post #29
Grishnakh wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Because you like competition and you want to knock that "leading FOSS office suite" off its perch. So, basically spite. The real competitor is Microsoft Office; that's what all FOSS software is competing against in trying to get people comfortable with using FOSS software and stop being locked-into proprietary software and file formats. You're actually harming the FOSS cause by promoting factionalism and fragmentati…

> The real competitor is Microsoft Office Is it? I haven't used any desktop office suite in more than five years, at least. I would think the real competitor is Google Docs, and I don't see any current credible path forward that brings OO or Libre Office to the web.

I'd love to see LibreOffice or Apache OpenOffice compiled to the Web (eg. asm.js, WebAssembly)

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#38

Post by maccam94 »

Grishnakh wrote: post #24
cesarb wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Libreoffice (LO) and Apache Open Office (AOO) both existed at a point in time of the fork, when a portion of the governed (in this case the developers) withheld their assent to the impositions by AOO and started LO. I'm sorry, but this is wrong. LibreOffice was started almost a year before AOO. Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#History for details.

That's basically quibbling, though the OP did err in his history a bit. AOO existed before that point too, it just wasn't called AOO and it wasn't part of Apache; it was run by Oracle, and before that, Sun. It was still the same project before Oracle dropped it on Apache. The portion of the governed were mad at the impositions by Oracle , not Apache, and started LO. A year later, with almost no developers left and al…

> That's basically quibbling

It's absolutely not quibbling, the OP framed his whole post around the governance of Apache OpenOffice vs LibreOffice:

>> Libreoffice (LO) and Apache Open Office (AOO) both existed at a point in time of the fork, when a portion of the governed (in this case the developers) withheld their assent to the impositions by AOO and started LO.

>> Given the choice, contributors chose the LO governance over the AOO governance

>> No one person was responsible, everyone was responsible.

No, Oracle was DIRECTLY responsible (with some blame falling on Sun). Oracle dumped OpenOffice on the Apache project when it became obvious that their continued involvement would not be profitable.

>> But it is also a condemnation in the form of how open source is so loosely governed, there was no effective process of keeping it from getting to the fork or die state.

No, this was a CLEAR condemnation of Oracle as a steward of open-source projects, and a good example of the community pulling together when the governance structure stopped working.

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#39

Post by ChuckMcM »

maccam94 wrote: post #38
Grishnakh wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's basically quibbling, though the OP did err in his history a bit. AOO existed before that point too, it just wasn't called AOO and it wasn't part of Apache; it was run by Oracle, and before that, Sun. It was still the same project before Oracle dropped it on Apache. The portion of the governed were mad at the impositions by Oracle , not Apache, and started LO. A year later, with almost no developers left and al…

> That's basically quibbling It's absolutely not quibbling, the OP framed his whole post around the governance of Apache OpenOffice vs LibreOffice: >> Libreoffice (LO) and Apache Open Office (AOO) both existed at a point in time of the fork, when a portion of the governed (in this case the developers) withheld their assent to the impositions by AOO and started LO. >> Given the choice, contributors chose the LO govern…

For what it is worth, my comment is, in essence, that the "power" of governance flows from the governed and that the Open Office project provides us with an excellent example of how the governed can express their disagreement with the governance. The example works because the "official" lineage of the project is dying, while the "forked" lineage of the project is not. It also keeps a lot of variables such as opportunity cost, market size, Etc., the same which helps it as tool for learning.

I did NOT mean to imply that it was the Apache foundation that killed (or at least mortally wounded) Open Office. What I was trying to state was that a series of governance choices killed it, the breaking point can be identified in time as the moment LO forked itself. Then from that point forward, you can compare the governance choices made by the OO lineage, and the governance choices made by the LO lineage, and see what worked and what did not. And that is what makes it such a great example (in my opinion).

For people reading and following along, and who might be considering being the steward of an open source project, they might take a moment and look at both paths thoughtfully to understand the limitations of being "the boss" on a project and how those limitations are manifested.

I get where you are coming from Cam, I screwed up by not pointing out it was Oracle in charge of Open Office when LO forked, but as that screw up changes nothing about how governance is perceived by the governed or rejected by the governed, I expect that is why your point might be considered a quibble.

Re: What's next for Apache OpenOffice

#40

Post by starseeker »

From what I can see, if Apache OpenOffice wants to be a viable project with Libreoffice already out there and well ahead from a user perspective, it needs to focus on things that are attractive about it that differentiate it from Libreoffice. Right now, to the best of my admittedly limited knowledge, that's primarily their license. My thought on this is that they need to pick some (fairly radical) directions to take the project in that will provide clear alternatives to LibreOffice. Maybe they could review the ideas here: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Crazy_Ideas and pick some of the more ambitious ones that Libreoffice is unlikely to attempt.
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