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Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

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Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#231

Post by tptacek »

Unklejoe wrote: post #225
eropple wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being denoted as such in federal law. The original Civil Rights Act, in 1964, specified race, color, sex, religion, and national origin; since then a few classes (pregnancy/marital status, age, citizenship, etc.) have been added over time.

I see. I honestly didn't know much about the specifics of protected classes before today. So, currently, political affiliation is not a protected class, but it is considered a gray area by many. Many may feel that political affiliation should be considered a protected class, however, if it becomes one, would that mean that Nazism is now protected? Or coming at it from the other angle, as it stands, a religious extrem…

Nazism is in many ways protected. Cities cannot deny permits to neo-Nazi groups to assemble, for instance.

The comparison between Nazism and discrimination against black people is pretty creepy, though.

The experience of black people on Airbnb is: "Here is an amazing looking listing. I'm psyched to see if it's available for my trip. Click. Oh! It is available! How excellent. I'll plan accordingly." Then, a few hours later, when the owner has noticed the applicant's African American sounding name, the reservation is rescinded. It happens repeatedly, and there's nothing the renter can do about it.

The experience of the neo-Nazi is roughly the same, except the first time it happens they take the swastika out of their profile picture and from then on everything works peachy for them.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#232

Post by runako »

bitL wrote: post #223
runako wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does this really seem fine to you? You're attributing to me emotions I did not express. Obviously, because I didn't offer an opinion on anything in my question. >There are now many women-only places/clubs but the same is denied to men in the US. This is demonstrably false, and can be disproved with Google in seconds. But I'll surmise you aren't all that concerned with the existence of women's social clubs as a coun…

I am not an American, so it's only tangentially related to my life (in a way that my part of the world is going to experience it 10 years later), or that I have to be more careful not to accidentally trigger anyone on my next Hawaiian vacation (like last time I visited Old Lahaina Luau and some black woman from NYC wanted to kick me out of the place I paid for because she wanted to sit there - is being a "black woman…

> I am not an American

This may explain a lot. Perhaps our current media exports are offering a misleading perception. I would suggest you look at the public data, as it might be a better basis for forming conclusions. I would wager a beer that actual data (NB: or any time spent in pretty much any corridor of power in America) will not support the conclusion that white men in America are disadvantaged relative to other groups.

Also: we don't actually have all that many social clubs here; they are in some ways a relic from the past. I would suggest they are opening up to black people and women as a result of self-interested response to market forces. The types of clubs that denied admission to black people until well into the 1990s aren't the types of clubs that cave because Huffington Post ran an unflattering piece.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#233

Post by lotsofpulp »

ch4s3 wrote: post #153
lotsofpulp wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a racial thing, I think it's more about preventing damage to your property by going with the ones who are least likely to damage. For example, the types of foods and spices a certain culture cooks with can cause a dwelling to smell for days (just like smoking), and so will cause a problem with future tenants. Certain cultures are known for having lots of kids and not raising them to be quiet or dis…

>Certain cultures are known for having lots of kids and not raising them to be quiet or disciplined Do you realize that you are literally parroting a racist trope?

No, I specified culture, not race. The way of life is the problem, not someone's skin color or biological features. For example, you wouldn't want gypsies in your residence or hotel, they WILL cause problems and it will negatively effect your other hotel guests. For similar reasons you wouldn't want to live next to them either. Another culture is that of the rich (especially newly rich), where their wealth has allowed them to hire all sorts of servants and baby sitters and in general they treat their hired help as if they are below them.

They bring that same attitude and cause problems (as do spoiled Americans and Europeans, but those tend to be much richer and fewer due to labor costing more) wherever they go due to their entitledness. Again, it has nothing to do with race, but the manner in which one conducts themselves, which may have to do with the environment they grew up in.

Regardless, you would not want to stay in a hotel that did not screen its guests one way or another, and the same principles apply here. Note, that I'm not advocating blindly discriminating against anyone, but simply stating that any business should be forced to accept anyone is not realistic. They will screen one way or another, either by raising the prices, requiring deposits, or simply by not offering the service anymore.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#234

Post by stcredzero »

eropple wrote: post #189
bitL wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about WhiteBnB. It's about WhomeverIWantBnB. I am white, European, affluent, from a popular country and was rejected many times by AirBnB hosts (most of them blacks or women), so what? I looked elsewhere. It's really their right to provide accommodation to whomever they wish, it's their property. If AirBnB doesn't want them, they'd go elsewhere and AirBnB will go the way GitHub is going. Most hosts are featu…

> If AirBnB doesn't want them, they'd go elsewhere and AirBnB will go the way GitHub is going. So, exactly where it is now? I know it's super popular in regressive circles to think that GitHub is somehow failing because fffffemninisms , but it's also untrue. > I really think US is now getting to a completely different extreme - why should be whites and men so severely disadvantaged? We're not. Claims to the contrary…

Source: straight white male in one of the most liberal parts of the United States and doing just fine.

It's mostly about socioeconomic status. The overarching problem is the conflation of things like race with socioeconomic status. Poor white males being conflated with affluent white males is basically a part of the same phenomenon as poor black males being conflated with affluent black males. The former results in poor white males being discriminated against. The latter results in "driving while black" or my ex girlfriend's devout uncle and his well behaved sons being treated like drug dealers by the local police.

I'm not saying poor people of one color have it better or worse than poor people of another color. (And for the record, affluent whites still can have it much better than affluent people of color, depending on context.) The whole problem is the use of race as a proxy for socioeconomic status, which creates an uneven playing field -- which creates social injustice. Let's be aware of this and not contribute to it.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#235

Post by weberc2 »

tedmiston wrote: post #95
dilap wrote: post #6

I don't know if this is really a tractable problem. At the end of the day, either airbnb lets hosts decide who stays or doesn't. If they don't let hosts decide, they'll likely lose a ton of hosts, since having someone stay in your home is a very personal thing and a huge risk. If they do, then they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.

> At the end of the day, either airbnb lets hosts decide who stays or doesn't. Why not both? That's essentially what Instant Book does — let Airbnb decide who stays instead of the host.

I think the concern remains that the algorithm may be optimized for someone's ideology and not the safety of the host and his property. Barring that, I'm sold.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#236

Post by Spooky23 »

runako wrote: post #43
brightball wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my thought here as well. It's one thing to have very public businesses with anti-discrimination rules, but something like Air BnB where people have to decide in most cases who they are going to let into their homes is a much more complicated problem. We're seeing a wide trend in the US where people want rules to prevent people from making choices that they don't agree with, which was basically the opposite o…

> very public businesses One might argue that posting pictures of the interior of a residence, advertising it for rent by the night, and posting a price for such privilege is what makes a hotel a "very public business." (It's also why regulations apply to hotels.) One might also wonder that if these properties make a hotel or B&B a public business, what's different about AirBnB rentals? Sure enough, back in 1964 the…

AirBNB has already established that they consider themselves very "special".

Most other activities happening in your home, including renting out a room to a housemate, are not subject to discrimination laws.

If you don't want a particular type of person in your home, you should have that right, whether that's because you have a safety or other concern, or because you are a racist asshole.

If AirBNB wants to pretend it's a public accommodation now because discrimination affects its brand, tough. Maybe they should exert full control by building hotels in commercial districts.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#237

Post by eropple »

Unklejoe wrote: post #225
eropple wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being denoted as such in federal law. The original Civil Rights Act, in 1964, specified race, color, sex, religion, and national origin; since then a few classes (pregnancy/marital status, age, citizenship, etc.) have been added over time.

I see. I honestly didn't know much about the specifics of protected classes before today. So, currently, political affiliation is not a protected class, but it is considered a gray area by many. Many may feel that political affiliation should be considered a protected class, however, if it becomes one, would that mean that Nazism is now protected? Or coming at it from the other angle, as it stands, a religious extrem…

> Many may feel that political affiliation should be considered a protected class, however, if it becomes one, would that mean that Nazism is now protected?

As tptacek notes, in many ways Nazism is protected through other means. But to directly answer your question, I think the answer is a firm maybe. Because it depends on whether Nazism is recognized as a political affiliation. Which means that that question, too, needs to be settled. (Maybe it is. I don't know.)

That said, I don't think political affiliation should be a protected class (it's something that isn't intrinsic in the way that race or gender identity is and, as tptacek mentioned, can be "taken off" at will) and I don't think it ever practically could be one so I don't think about it that often. Similarly, I also don't really think religious affiliation should be, except that in a practical sense it serves as a shield to protect minority groups as it currently stands so I don't mind the kluge.

> Or does the protection become void as soon as you use it negatively towards another protected class?

I am unclear on the interrelations that you posit, though I just asked a con-law friend for his take and (according to him) it depends on whether or not it is a place of "public accommodation"--retail stores, service businesses, educational institutions. In such a case, yes, it is not lawful to refuse to serve that customer.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#238

Post by ch4s3 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #233
ch4s3 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Certain cultures are known for having lots of kids and not raising them to be quiet or disciplined Do you realize that you are literally parroting a racist trope?

No, I specified culture, not race. The way of life is the problem, not someone's skin color or biological features. For example, you wouldn't want gypsies in your residence or hotel, they WILL cause problems and it will negatively effect your other hotel guests. For similar reasons you wouldn't want to live next to them either. Another culture is that of the rich (especially newly rich), where their wealth has allowe…

Except that the quote "Certain cultures are known for having lots of kids and not raising them to be quiet or disciplined" is literally a racists trope, used historically by racists to disparage other racial/ethnic groups. And they always defend their this baseless assertion by saying its a critique of culture and not about race. But, that's plainly bullshit. Its especially bullshit because you aren't referring to any specific culture, that's called a dog whistle[1], and its literally something racists do.

> you wouldn't want gypsies in you ... hotel If they have credit cards I do. And they call themselves Romani, gypsy is a deeply racist term. Why are you still diggin this hole for yourself? You're just throwing around baseless accusations and generalizations about vast swathes of people.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#239

Post by Spooky23 »

mcshicks wrote: post #52
brightball wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my thought here as well. It's one thing to have very public businesses with anti-discrimination rules, but something like Air BnB where people have to decide in most cases who they are going to let into their homes is a much more complicated problem. We're seeing a wide trend in the US where people want rules to prevent people from making choices that they don't agree with, which was basically the opposite o…

Being a white supremacist is not a protected class in the US and it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of race in housing. The law seems perfectly clear to me. As made applicable by section 803 of this title and except as exempted by sections 803(b) and 807 of this title, it shall be unlawful-- (a) To refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of…

It's not housing. Your home is your castle, and you are sharing it for a limited scope, either a room or block of time.

That's pretty much the basis for AirBnb's existence.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#240

Post by mathattack »

dilap wrote: post #6

I don't know if this is really a tractable problem. At the end of the day, either airbnb lets hosts decide who stays or doesn't. If they don't let hosts decide, they'll likely lose a ton of hosts, since having someone stay in your home is a very personal thing and a huge risk. If they do, then they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.

If they do, then they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.

People can improve over time if they're nudged. People used to think slavery was ok, and attitudes changed. The majority used to think gay marriage should be banned, and attitudes changed. Small groups need to take a stand, and change big groups.

To take a moral stand will ultimately cost Airbnb in the short term, so they should be lauded and supported for it. (Some people may choose to not open up their homes if they aren't allowed to discriminate)

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