Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts • Hacker News Board

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#131

Post by rmxt » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:08 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #94

rmxt wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linking to Wikipedia without expounding which details you are referring to is a bit of sleight of hand. Specifically, what part of "separate but equal" [1] "legally required" that "separate" facilities for blacks have poorer conditions than the facilities for whites? I speculate that it's embedded cultural beliefs of hatred and superiority/inferiority (or, at a minimum, apathy) that caused those poorer conditions and…

If you scroll up, you'll see Frondo asserting that "It [discrimination] didn't hurt businesses in the American south enough to compel them to stop discriminating." Frondo is attempting to argue that market forces don't punish people (much) for discrimination. I'm simply pointing out that market forces weren't even allowed. People discriminated because the law said things like this: "No colored barber shall serve as a…

Only one (the first) of the four quotes you've chosen restrict market forces in the way you are envisioning, i.e. white workers don't want black competition. I'd be interested in what the next sentence was, and wouldn't be surprised if it was "no white barber shall serve as a barber to colored women". (Aside: it seems like lots of these snippets are floating around the internet with little by way of attribution.)

The remaining three are "separate but equal". We return to the question: what about these laws required that the "separate" facilities be of lesser quality? Nothing about "separate but equal" immediately screams "discrimination", but as we know from history, it can end in discriminatory practice. The de facto ramifications of the laws were that black populations suffered (economically/educationally/etc.) at the hands of white populations: the market forces were not strong enough to encourage a lifting of the laws, or genuinely equal facilities, as Frondo suggests. Similarly, market forces may not be strong enough to encourage Airbnb hosts to serve all potential customers equally.

Your causation is backwards: people created the laws (under guise of equality) because they wanted to discriminate (and, if you want to boil everything down to some ahistorical economic gesture, it resulted in market forces tilting in their favor). To say that the laws stemmed from the economic implications is a stretch, especially post Plessy.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#132

Post by danielrhodes » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:10 PM UTC

On the flip side, do you really want to stay with a host who would otherwise be discriminatory towards you. I certainly wouldn't. It might be more interesting if you provided your discriminating characteristics and then you could publicly see a host's bias.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#133

Post by guelo » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:12 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #117

guelo wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're seeing a wide trend in the US where people want rules to prevent people from making choices that they don't agree with, which was basically the opposite of the point of the US. Freedom is a relative thing. Here we have AirBnB's freedom to not want racist hosts vs white supremacist's freedom to use AirBnB. The only freedom the ideal of USA is supposed to grant you is freedom from too much government meddling.

> The only freedom the ideal of USA is supposed to grant you is freedom from too much government meddling. Really? Which amendment is that one? There are a few prominent restrictions on particular kinds of government meddling in the US. This by no means generalizes to the rest of it.

That's why I said 'ideal', it's not true in practice, but I was responding to the comment about the hypothetical "point of the US".

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#134

Post by djschnei » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:13 PM UTC

How as a society do we decide appropriate discrimination vs. inappropriate discrimination? We discriminate constantly, every single of us - making choice of this person over that person. Is that wrong? when does it become wrong? is it not something that can be hashed out?

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#135

Post by bdcravens » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:14 PM UTC

mcshicks wrote: post #52

brightball wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my thought here as well. It's one thing to have very public businesses with anti-discrimination rules, but something like Air BnB where people have to decide in most cases who they are going to let into their homes is a much more complicated problem. We're seeing a wide trend in the US where people want rules to prevent people from making choices that they don't agree with, which was basically the opposite o…

Being a white supremacist is not a protected class in the US and it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of race in housing. The law seems perfectly clear to me. As made applicable by section 803 of this title and except as exempted by sections 803(b) and 807 of this title, it shall be unlawful-- (a) To refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of…

How can you draw the distinction however? Couldn't the white supremacist claim another reason? (for instance, white supremacists often bridge their religious beliefs with their racist views)

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#136

Post by brightball » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:15 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #87

brightball wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my thought here as well. It's one thing to have very public businesses with anti-discrimination rules, but something like Air BnB where people have to decide in most cases who they are going to let into their homes is a much more complicated problem. We're seeing a wide trend in the US where people want rules to prevent people from making choices that they don't agree with, which was basically the opposite o…

> We're seeing a wide trend in the US where people want rules to prevent people from making choices that they don't agree with, which was basically the opposite of the point of the US. Freedom is a relative thing. Here we have AirBnB's freedom to not want racist hosts vs white supremacist's freedom to use AirBnB. The only freedom the ideal of USA is supposed to grant you is freedom from too much government meddling.

That's really the crux of what I'm getting at here.

People who are using AirBnB to rent space in their homes will also have the freedom to stop doing so if they are no longer comfortable losing any say regarding who they are willing to let stay.

If anything, AirBnB is really opening the door for a competitor who totally defers to the property owner to cut into their market share.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#137

Post by 6dqh5yapl3 » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:16 PM UTC

djschnei wrote: post #134

How as a society do we decide appropriate discrimination vs. inappropriate discrimination? We discriminate constantly, every single of us - making choice of this person over that person. Is that wrong? when does it become wrong? is it not something that can be hashed out?

We have had this debate in the US. We determined that that you can discriminate against people for most random reasons, but if you run a public accommodation there are several specific reasons you can't use to discriminate.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#138

Post by ritchiea » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:17 PM UTC

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #105

tedmiston wrote: post #93

I've always considered it a legitimate request when people want to live with others of the same gender for a shared room in their home. For example, you especially see this on sites like Craigslist when people are seeking roommates. This policy seems to overturn the ability of hosts to do this. If I were a female in an all female home renting out one room, it would make me uncomfortable. Perhaps other do not see this…

Also, they're attacking whites only here. What if blacks wanted a black person. Or a Chinese person who only speaks Chinese and writes only in Mandarin wants the same. The left will give these people exceptions for "cutlural" reasons. They just want to regulate race and commerce on their unquestionable terms. This has nothing to do with equality. Its just a power-grab by political opportunists and misguided idealists…

Have you considered the fact that whites discriminating against blacks is commonplace in the United States (as well as many other countries) while accounts of whites feeling discriminated against by people of color is much more rare?

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#139

Post by ndarilek » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

nicolas_t wrote: post #107

As an host, I'll never discriminate on the basis of religion, sex orientation, color of skin, national origin or gender identity. When it comes to disability, I might refuse someone whose disability would cause risk in using the apartment and might have an accident because the apartment is not safe for someone who's disabled (the building is 300 years old, there's no elevator, the stair in the duplex apartment doesn'…

I'm blind. Would you not rent this property to me because you fear for my safety therein?

Would it make a difference if I've said I've skied, biked solo, rock-climbed? If so, why should I have to do so when others don't, and are trusted to make up their own minds as to whether your property works for them?

Do you feel more confident than I am in determining my own limits?

Disclosure: I've been denied many opportunities because an unqualified person determined what was and was not safe/possible/healthy/OK for me to do, and find it upsetting to be denied my agency because of it. Glad to see these changes landing. If I've misinterpreted your post then I do apologize, but it looks like you're making choices and denying opportunities for capable adults, and I'm not OK with that if that's the case.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#140

Post by ProAm » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:18 PM UTC

nicolas_t wrote: post #107

As an host, I'll never discriminate on the basis of religion, sex orientation, color of skin, national origin or gender identity. When it comes to disability, I might refuse someone whose disability would cause risk in using the apartment and might have an accident because the apartment is not safe for someone who's disabled (the building is 300 years old, there's no elevator, the stair in the duplex apartment doesn'…

To play devils advocate your are saying some personal discrimination is okay because of what you feel are valid arguments, but other people should not be able to have their own set of rules for their discrimination?