Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts • Hacker News Board

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#121

Post by vkou » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 6:54 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #106

dilap wrote: post #6

I don't know if this is really a tractable problem. At the end of the day, either airbnb lets hosts decide who stays or doesn't. If they don't let hosts decide, they'll likely lose a ton of hosts, since having someone stay in your home is a very personal thing and a huge risk. If they do, then they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.

I can think of one way AirBNB could attempt to persuade hosts: publish data showing that there is no correlation between any of [race, religion, national origin, disability, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age] and the likelihood of a guest being a poor guest (ending in an insurance claim, or maybe just a very bad review). If the data shows that there is no correlation, they can prove hosts have no reason t…

I'm sure that if AirBnB lays out an impartial, data driven argument, racists will realize the error of their ways.

... Right.

Also, note that health insurer discrimination is the exception, rather then the norm (And it surprises me that it is even legal).

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#122

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #115

dragonwriter wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what makes Airbnb a "brokering service"? The fact that they take a commission (rather than, e.g., a size-of-listing-based listing fee, the way newspaper classifieds would), handle rental reservations, cancellations, mediate refund requests, and act as a payment intermediary, etc., all seem to point to them being a person in the rental business providing rental services, rather than a mere listing venue like a n…

Ok, I think the logic as you've laid it out makes sense to you and I won't argue it but I will explain how other people view what a "broker" or "broker service" actually is: The core value-added function of a (traditional) rental broker is the matching of renter and landlord. For the renter, brokers recommend which apartments in which neighborhoods are appropriate. For landlords, brokers pre-screen for appropriate re…

> This is why going after the "broker service" angle would be a weak approach in changing homeowners' minds about discrimination.

I'm not suggesting it as a way to change homeowner's minds, which isn't even something I'm interested in doing [0]. I'm interested in enforcing the existing law prohibiting discrimination. If hosts wish to discriminate, I'd prefer they'd be limited to doing so only in the limited circumstances and manners permitted by law, and not willy-nilly in defiance of the law.

[0] Okay, its something I'm interested in doing, but its a longer-term, less-immediately-critical goal that's pretty much irrelevant to anything I've said about the issues in this thread, except in this footnote.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#123

Post by prmph » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 6:57 PM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #106

dilap wrote: post #6

I don't know if this is really a tractable problem. At the end of the day, either airbnb lets hosts decide who stays or doesn't. If they don't let hosts decide, they'll likely lose a ton of hosts, since having someone stay in your home is a very personal thing and a huge risk. If they do, then they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.

I can think of one way AirBNB could attempt to persuade hosts: publish data showing that there is no correlation between any of [race, religion, national origin, disability, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age] and the likelihood of a guest being a poor guest (ending in an insurance claim, or maybe just a very bad review). If the data shows that there is no correlation, they can prove hosts have no reason t…

The usual arguments against your point have been well argued before, but I will repeat it here, because people all too often trip up on the seeming unassailable logic of your position:

Men are statistically more likely to commit violent crimes than women, and 100% of crime is committed by humans. Would you suggest that "men" and "humans" as classes should be discriminated against as a result?

What if, statistically, there were some weird factor, like the shape of ears, that correlated more strongly with the quality of a guest. Would you base your hosting decisions on that?

You don't think it too neat and simplistic that, with race being something that speaks to the deepest prejudices in people, "data" has been found and collected that appears to support such prejudices?

Statistically, poor people might be a net drain on economy. Do you suggest we get rid of them?

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#124

Post by charlesdm » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

pascalmemories wrote: post #112

nicolas_t wrote: post #107

As an host, I'll never discriminate on the basis of religion, sex orientation, color of skin, national origin or gender identity. When it comes to disability, I might refuse someone whose disability would cause risk in using the apartment and might have an accident because the apartment is not safe for someone who's disabled (the building is 300 years old, there's no elevator, the stair in the duplex apartment doesn'…

If I understand correctly, you're happy to be the one discriminating against disabled people, old people and people with children. But you're not happy if you're on the receiving end of any discrimination. Don't you see the contradiction there ? Anti-discrimination policies are about ensuring people have equal access to services and facilities (whether it's contentious toilets or hotels or whatever). You seem to indi…

It seems like a sensible statement to make? We're talking about renting out owner occupied apartments for a limited amount of time during the year. Some properties just can't be modified to accommodate people with certain (certain, not all) disabilities. And neither would some people want to, if you're only renting them out a few months a year.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#125

Post by orthoganol » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:01 PM UTC

nicolas_t wrote: post #107

As an host, I'll never discriminate on the basis of religion, sex orientation, color of skin, national origin or gender identity. When it comes to disability, I might refuse someone whose disability would cause risk in using the apartment and might have an accident because the apartment is not safe for someone who's disabled (the building is 300 years old, there's no elevator, the stair in the duplex apartment doesn'…

> a host who was nice to me when I met him and then wasn't as nice 5 minutes later once my wife arrived

I don't doubt the presence of racism in our society, but this seems like an overly subjective and crude way to label someone a racist. Off the top of my head they could be threatened by the other's attractiveness (surprisingly common), they find the person awkward to speak with or annoying/ out of touch, they are shy/uncomfortable around social situations with multiple people, they could even be a minsogynst, they could have terrible social skills, or a hundred other reasons why someone might give off bad vibes to someone else.

How do you differentiate so assuredly between "this person just doesn't like this person and/ or the situation" and "this person is a racist"?

I've lived in countries where I felt like I got a ton of looks/ distance, and if someone was rude to me, I found myself jumping to "racism" a lot, a lot of the x-pats did. Yet when I come back home I still encounter the same kind of rudeness but suddenly it's not racism anymore, it's just people being assholes. Not sure where I'm going with this, it just does bother me that people are so quick to pull the racism card in such ambiguous, subjective situations, especially when it's against people who are younger than my grandparent's generation, who in the US at least are a lot less likely to actually be racist.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#126

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:03 PM UTC

prmph wrote: post #123

simonsarris wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of one way AirBNB could attempt to persuade hosts: publish data showing that there is no correlation between any of [race, religion, national origin, disability, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, age] and the likelihood of a guest being a poor guest (ending in an insurance claim, or maybe just a very bad review). If the data shows that there is no correlation, they can prove hosts have no reason t…

The usual arguments against your point have been well argued before, but I will repeat it here, because people all too often trip up on the seeming unassailable logic of your position: Men are statistically more likely to commit violent crimes than women, and 100% of crime is committed by humans. Would you suggest that "men" and "humans" as classes should be discriminated against as a result? What if, statistically,…

> 100% of crime is committed by humans.

This is not true; 100% of crimes are committed by persons, but both natural persons (humans) and juridical persons (corporations, etc.) commit crimes, and its possible for the latter to commit a crime when none of the individual owners or agents are, as individuals, guilty of a crime.

> Would you suggest that "men" and "humans" as classes should be discriminated against as a result?

But, the latter kind of discrimination is the reason that the claim about humans committing 100% of crime is approximately (that is, but for crimes by juridical persons) true -- only humans commit crimes because acts are only criminal when committed by humans, so discrimination against humans is the reason for rather than a response to the condition you identify.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#127

Post by pascalmemories » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:03 PM UTC

saiya-jin wrote: post #118

pascalmemories wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand correctly, you're happy to be the one discriminating against disabled people, old people and people with children. But you're not happy if you're on the receiving end of any discrimination. Don't you see the contradiction there ? Anti-discrimination policies are about ensuring people have equal access to services and facilities (whether it's contentious toilets or hotels or whatever). You seem to indi…

why the attack? the fact that he didn't put in enough safety in complicated apartment is the reason for you to attack him? Well maybe it technically challenging, would make the place ugly or is near impossible given the layout of the place or materials used to build it. You cannot just drill anywhere you want in buildings that are few hundred years old for example. there is a distinction between sharing an apt and go…

My comments are far from an attack; an attack would have been more than summarizing his comments in 2 lines and then pointing out there was a discrepancy.

I don't know where you got the idea that I was suggesting anyone should 'just drill anywhere' from ?

As an old person or a disabled person, looking on AirBnB, I can see what the apartment has and how it is laid out (provided good pictures and description are provided).

Being old or disabled does not stop me being mentally competent to decide for myself whether I'm capable of climbing stairs or negotiating the apartment. It is actually a very offensive and discriminatory thing to suggest either of these personal attributes make me mentally incompetent and this is the core of what makes such discrimination offensive - and illegal - in many jurisdictions around the world.

If there is a legal requirement to have safety rails on stairs (or any other regulation), saying the building is X years old is not an excuse for failure to comply. If you're worried about damage being caused in trying to fit them yourself, you hire a professional to do it instead and then it's their job to ensure the building is still sound after the installation. You're operating what is essentially a business, so costs like that are reasonable business expenses to offset against your profits and the result is you get an improved, safer, house for you and guests and essentially get the guests to pay for it, making you ahead.

I don't understand why you're so upset.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#128

Post by fooker » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:05 PM UTC

I have had a reservation cancelled in the last moment (in the Bay Area) without a valid reason. Also about half of the hosts do not even reply to the initial queries. It is not hard to speculate that me being a 20-something brown guy has something to do with it.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#129

Post by elif » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:05 PM UTC

pascalmemories wrote: post #112

nicolas_t wrote: post #107

As an host, I'll never discriminate on the basis of religion, sex orientation, color of skin, national origin or gender identity. When it comes to disability, I might refuse someone whose disability would cause risk in using the apartment and might have an accident because the apartment is not safe for someone who's disabled (the building is 300 years old, there's no elevator, the stair in the duplex apartment doesn'…

If I understand correctly, you're happy to be the one discriminating against disabled people, old people and people with children. But you're not happy if you're on the receiving end of any discrimination. Don't you see the contradiction there ? Anti-discrimination policies are about ensuring people have equal access to services and facilities (whether it's contentious toilets or hotels or whatever). You seem to indi…

There are plenty of hotels which are "adults only" for any number of reasons and I have not heard a complaint that these are discrimination.

Even under the US ADA, only hotels built after 1993 are required to provide compliant facilities. That means there are actual 100% for-profit hotels which are out of compliance. Perhaps frustration is more appropriately directed at them, or the provisions of the ADA than an individual trying to share his personal residence in a practical manner?

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#130

Post by sfrailsdev » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 7:07 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #6

I don't know if this is really a tractable problem. At the end of the day, either airbnb lets hosts decide who stays or doesn't. If they don't let hosts decide, they'll likely lose a ton of hosts, since having someone stay in your home is a very personal thing and a huge risk. If they do, then they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.

I know that it can feel intractable, because change for the better is way slower then I'd like it to be, compared to technological progress.

Discrimination may never be eliminated completely, but it can be reduced so that there are less incidents and a lower impact. And while some issues will be harder to prevent, others may be low hanging fruit.

It's like software bugs. We may never be free of them, but we can and do build better and better systems, tools, patterns and mentalities for increasing awareness and reducing bugs.

Nextdoor was able to reduce racial profiling with some software changes that increased awareness of possible racial bias and asked for additional details beyond race when people reported incidents.

If software is eating the world, I bet it can take a fair chunk out of racial discrimination rates (or any discrimination) if correctly applied.

At the end of the day, you can try to make a difference, or you can refuse to.