Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts • Hacker News Board

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#61

Post by defen » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 3:57 PM UTC

mcshicks wrote: post #52

brightball wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my thought here as well. It's one thing to have very public businesses with anti-discrimination rules, but something like Air BnB where people have to decide in most cases who they are going to let into their homes is a much more complicated problem. We're seeing a wide trend in the US where people want rules to prevent people from making choices that they don't agree with, which was basically the opposite o…

Being a white supremacist is not a protected class in the US and it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of race in housing. The law seems perfectly clear to me. As made applicable by section 803 of this title and except as exempted by sections 803(b) and 807 of this title, it shall be unlawful-- (a) To refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of…

I believe the point is that any action AirBnB takes to reduce the racial discrimination problem (moving to instant booking, reducing or eliminating the visibility of the renter's photo / real name) will also prevent hosts from discriminating against white supremacists (more generally, any non-protected class towards whom the host feels extreme revulsion)

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#62

Post by Normal_gaussian » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #37

rjsw wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hotels usually have the credit card number of the guest.

and insurance and the means and laws to go after the former guest

I mean, it's the hotelier's responsibility to get insurance.

Is there no way for an Airbnb host to get the identity of their guest?

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#63

Post by yummyfajitas » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #29

marknutter wrote: post #2

Doesn't discrimination end up hurting the hosts in the end? Having less demand drives the rental costs down.

It didn't hurt businesses in the American south enough to compel them to stop discriminating. I don't get it either, why would I turn down someone's money because they're black, but lots of people did and whatever economic pain they felt from it was apparently outweighed by the joy of being racist assholes.

Please learn some history. Businesses in the American south were legally required to discriminate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

One of the major motivations in keeping Jim Crow laws was to prevent economic competition (a "race to the bottom") between whites and non-whites. See also FDR's pro-union/pro-white policies.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#64

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 3:59 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #59

mcshicks wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a white supremacist is not a protected class in the US and it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of race in housing. The law seems perfectly clear to me. As made applicable by section 803 of this title and except as exempted by sections 803(b) and 807 of this title, it shall be unlawful-- (a) To refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of…

The law, if you read it, pretty clearly does NOT apply to AirBnB (except possibly people who rent a large number of flats on it). From 803(b): (b)Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--(1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner:... (It's a long section, I've snipped most of it. Section 804 is what you quoted.) (2)rooms or units in dwellings containing living quart…

> The law, if you read it, pretty clearly does NOT apply to AirBnB

It pretty clearly applies to lots of uses of AirBnB, even if arguably not all. But I think there's a pretty good case that it applies to AirBnB use without exception, simply because using AirBnB seems to make it applicable, as discussed below.

> Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--(1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner:...

(Note that lots of AirBnB rentals of single-family homes are not by the owner, and thus not within this exception even before considering the limitations on the exception.)

> (It's a long section, I've snipped most of it. [...])

And you shouldn't have, because the part that you snipped is all limitations on the part of the you quoted, including the most important one: "Provided further, That after December 31, 1969, the sale or rental of any such single-family house shall be excepted from the application of this subchapter only if such house is sold or rented (A) without the use in any manner of the sales or rental facilities or the sales or rental services of any real estate broker, agent, or salesman, or of such facilities or services of any person in the business of selling or renting dwellings, or of any employee or agent of any such broker, agent, salesman, or person and (B) without the publication, posting or mailing, after notice, of any advertisement or written notice in violation of section 804(c) of this title; [...]"

The use of a service like AirBnB would seem to place a rental act squarely within this limitation, and thus outside of the exception.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#65

Post by TheCoelacanth » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 4:08 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #59

mcshicks wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a white supremacist is not a protected class in the US and it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of race in housing. The law seems perfectly clear to me. As made applicable by section 803 of this title and except as exempted by sections 803(b) and 807 of this title, it shall be unlawful-- (a) To refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of…

The law, if you read it, pretty clearly does NOT apply to AirBnB (except possibly people who rent a large number of flats on it). From 803(b): (b)Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--(1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner:... (It's a long section, I've snipped most of it. Section 804 is what you quoted.) (2)rooms or units in dwellings containing living quart…

> except possibly people who rent a large number of flats on it

Aren't a large portion of listings from hosts who aren't renting out part of their own residence? For all of them, the law would apply.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#66

Post by gbacon » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #6

I don't know if this is really a tractable problem. At the end of the day, either airbnb lets hosts decide who stays or doesn't. If they don't let hosts decide, they'll likely lose a ton of hosts, since having someone stay in your home is a very personal thing and a huge risk. If they do, then they're going to have significant discrimination problems as long as people are discriminatory, i.e., basically forever.

The simple solution of making cancellation history public would seem to go a long way, but there may be privacy implications.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#67

Post by jasode » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 4:11 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #64

yummyfajitas wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law, if you read it, pretty clearly does NOT apply to AirBnB (except possibly people who rent a large number of flats on it). From 803(b): (b)Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--(1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner:... (It's a long section, I've snipped most of it. Section 804 is what you quoted.) (2)rooms or units in dwellings containing living quart…

> The law, if you read it, pretty clearly does NOT apply to AirBnB It pretty clearly applies to lots of uses of AirBnB, even if arguably not all. But I think there's a pretty good case that it applies to AirBnB use without exception, simply because using AirBnB seems to make it applicable, as discussed below. > Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--(1) any single-family hous…

>The use of a service like AirBnB would seem to place a rental act squarely within this limitation, and thus outside of the exception.

I don't think it would be. The extra verbiage about a "broker/agent" is more of a secondary definition to help the law pin down properties that are "commercial". In other words, if you're paying the high price of contracting a broker, you're 99.99% likely not to be renting out a personal bedroom.

The homeowner's use of Airbnb is more analogous to listing in the "newspaper classifieds" rather than contracting a human broker.

As far as I can tell, very few people including states' general attorneys or Federal courts interpret Airbnb's situation as a broker service that is therefore subject to those limitations.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#68

Post by TheCoelacanth » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 4:12 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #42

untog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really relevant here. The article is specifically about racial discrimination.

What's relevant is that AirBnB is against the Freedom of Owners to select who stays at their place. In the end Owners should have the final word, no matter what, certainly not AirBnB.

The laws of the United States disagree with you. Unless you are renting out part of your own residence, you do not have the freedom to select who stays there on the basis of race.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#69

Post by DanBC » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 4:13 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #59

mcshicks wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a white supremacist is not a protected class in the US and it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of race in housing. The law seems perfectly clear to me. As made applicable by section 803 of this title and except as exempted by sections 803(b) and 807 of this title, it shall be unlawful-- (a) To refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of…

The law, if you read it, pretty clearly does NOT apply to AirBnB (except possibly people who rent a large number of flats on it). From 803(b): (b)Nothing in section 804 of this title (other than subsection (c)) shall apply to--(1) any single-family house sold or rented by an owner:... (It's a long section, I've snipped most of it. Section 804 is what you quoted.) (2)rooms or units in dwellings containing living quart…

> rent a large number of flats on it

Where "large" means "more than one". And not always that. If they own two, live in one but lease the other they're not allowed to discriminate on protected characteristics.

Re: Airbnb Adopts Rules in Effort to Fight Discrimination by Its Hosts

#70

Post by protomyth » Thu, Sep 08, 2016, 4:14 PM UTC

Normal_gaussian wrote: post #62

protomyth wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and insurance and the means and laws to go after the former guest

I mean, it's the hotelier's responsibility to get insurance. Is there no way for an Airbnb host to get the identity of their guest?

> I mean, it's the hotelier's responsibility to get insurance.

Yes, its a requirement to be open.

> Is there no way for an Airbnb host to get the identity of their guest?

I've never used Airbnb so I don't know, but Airbnb hosts do not have the same legal protection as a hotel and they might actually be in violation of local and state laws plus any lease agreements they are a party to.