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Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#321
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one thinks intelligence is irrelevant to getting a PhD. The question is, how do you know that getting a PhD relies "heavily on intelligence"? How do you know that intelligence has a strong or weak correlation? Or that there isn't some sort of threshold, where an effective IQ of at least 90 is important, but 140 is no more important? What other factors have you considered, and why have you concluded they are less s…

OK, let's use your hypothetical that if we accept everyone, that they will have equal graduate attainment (regardless of test scores). Then, we would expect that there would be little correlation between testing scores and outcomes. Especially whether they get a degree. For instance, someone who gets a lower test score will have the same outcomes as someone who gets a higher test score. But that's not what the resear…

I specifically said that intelligence was a factor.

The hypothetical was meant to show that your analysis was insufficiently sensitive, not to posit that the hypothetical was actually the case.

You have an odd habit of pointing to secondary and preprint material, rather than the primary literature. Your APA links to several papers, including http://www.drtomascp.com/uploads/HungryMind_PPS_2011.pdf , titled "The Hungry Mind: Intellectual Curiosity Is the Third Pillar of Academic Performance". It concludes:

> The current study suggests that traditional sets of predictors of academic performance, notably general intelligence and Conscientiousness, should be accompanied by a third factor: intellectual curiosity. Jensen (1998) stated that “[general intelligence] g acts only as a threshold variable that specifies the essential minimum ability required for different kinds of achievement. Other, non-g special abilities and talents, along with certain personality factors ..., are also critical determinants of educational and vocational success” (p. 544–545). A remarkable number of studies on determinants of academic achievement have focused exclusively on ability and effort; the present findings, however, recommend further expanding the “g-nexus” for a better understanding of individual differences in academic performance. The latter requires—beyond intelligence and effort—a hungry mind.

It does say "intelligence is the single most powerful predictor of academic performance", then said:

> intelligence sustained the strongest effect on academic performance with a path weight of .35. TIE and Conscientiousness had slightly lower, identical path parameters of .20.

I believe that means that the other two legs together are more important than intelligence alone.

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Godlike genius.. Godlike nothing! Sticking to it is the genius! I've failed my way to success." -- Thomas Edison "Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal. My strength lives solely in my tenacity." -- Louis Pasteur "Men give me credit for genius; but all the genius I have lies in this: When I have a subject on hand I study it profoundly." -- Alexander Hamilton

I can't believe that it's coincidence that every person I've ever come across that has been proclaimed a genius at whatever has had this very same sentiment to express. There was a grain of talent and a moment of inspiration that led to a dogged pursuit of their interest. People are quick to write it off as "oh, they had talent" or "oh they were a genius", but I'm reasonably confident given the number of amazing peop…

Genius does not emerge solely from tenacity. Genius comes from figuring out new things to try in pursuit of a goal over a long period of time.

If you tried something and failed, how many permutations could you go through before you ran out of ideas of what to try? Could you do it for _years_? Could you keep trying, learning from your mistakes for a lifetime, until you reached your goal? Maybe you're a genius then.

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#323
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one thinks intelligence is irrelevant to getting a PhD. The question is, how do you know that getting a PhD relies "heavily on intelligence"? How do you know that intelligence has a strong or weak correlation? Or that there isn't some sort of threshold, where an effective IQ of at least 90 is important, but 140 is no more important? What other factors have you considered, and why have you concluded they are less s…

OK, let's use your hypothetical that if we accept everyone, that they will have equal graduate attainment (regardless of test scores). Then, we would expect that there would be little correlation between testing scores and outcomes. Especially whether they get a degree. For instance, someone who gets a lower test score will have the same outcomes as someone who gets a higher test score. But that's not what the resear…

The specific report isn't linked to in the article you posted, but I wonder how closely the first year grad curiculi resembled GRE tests and why the tests were apparently not predictive beyond a single academic year.

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> other metrics associated with intellectual accomplishment. Like say IQ. Feynman wouldn't have qualified for Mensa, and happily too[0]. Maybe that's a good metric. The metric is happy not to be in Mensa, but also has a PhD. Edit: Feynman's IQ was 126 and Mensa wants 132, at least according to Ericsson and Pool in their book Peak. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEUcmKDaklY

If Feynman's IQ was only 126 then IQ is a totally meaningless metric of intelligence.

Well, intelligence is a meaningless term as in "playing chess is intelligent" or sitting on a stool and answering questions about arithmetic is intelligent. Don't even get me started on creative or consciousness.

Oddly I feel that emotion is well defined as "behavioral modifications generated by reactions to circumstances", which is what John Maynard Smith told me it was.

He was an intelligent fella.

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#325
post #242
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many "pioneering mathematicians" are not one-percenters? If the answer is "99%", then there's no bias in favor of those who do well on the SAT. The article doesn't give that information. A similar question can be asked of famous musicians. How does Lady Gaga's success support, much less confirm, your pet theory? Did she have success in a STEM field? I see no mention of STEM in her Wikipedia biography. The article…

"How many "pioneering mathematicians" are not one-percenters? If the answer is "99%", then there's no bias in favor of those who do well on the SAT. The article doesn't give that information." The article doesn't give that information, but unless you believe that being in the top 1% is actively harmful to becoming a pioneering mathematician, the odds ratios of they give for doctorates gives you a good idea, since no…

That's a good point, thank you.

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#326
The problem with studies like these is that, in almost all fields, we find that the average is much better than the average of 50-100 years ago while the top is only slightly better.

This holds across things that even have physical components like athletics or music. The virtuosos of yesteryear may be as good as the virtuosos of today (and I dispute that) but the average orchestra player is WAY better today than even some of the best players of 100 years ago. Similarly, the average athlete today is WAY better than the average athlete of 50 years ago.

Training and education matter.

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Godlike genius.. Godlike nothing! Sticking to it is the genius! I've failed my way to success." -- Thomas Edison "Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal. My strength lives solely in my tenacity." -- Louis Pasteur "Men give me credit for genius; but all the genius I have lies in this: When I have a subject on hand I study it profoundly." -- Alexander Hamilton

I can't believe that it's coincidence that every person I've ever come across that has been proclaimed a genius at whatever has had this very same sentiment to express. There was a grain of talent and a moment of inspiration that led to a dogged pursuit of their interest. People are quick to write it off as "oh, they had talent" or "oh they were a genius", but I'm reasonably confident given the number of amazing peop…

There is always a bell curve. It's more obvious in fields where people start practicing from a tender age, like chess or music, where you start learning when you're around 4. There are many who dedicate their lives to such pursuits, but very few become Kasparov or Mozart. The others still become extremely good, but not the best, and most are forgotten by history.

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe that it's coincidence that every person I've ever come across that has been proclaimed a genius at whatever has had this very same sentiment to express. There was a grain of talent and a moment of inspiration that led to a dogged pursuit of their interest. People are quick to write it off as "oh, they had talent" or "oh they were a genius", but I'm reasonably confident given the number of amazing peop…

Genius does not emerge solely from tenacity. Genius comes from figuring out new things to try in pursuit of a goal over a long period of time. If you tried something and failed, how many permutations could you go through before you ran out of ideas of what to try? Could you do it for _years_? Could you keep trying, learning from your mistakes for a lifetime, until you reached your goal? Maybe you're a genius then.

Why not? Anyone could if the pursuit was worth it to them.

All it takes is being able to look at things and wonder "how could I apply this along with what I already know to achieve that goal?" Eventually you'll have some permutation of ideas that work. Even if you put it down and come back to it many years later. Maybe the goal isn't obvious until one day all the ideas come together to solve a problem that you need solved right now that yesterday you'd never even had cause to think about. That doesn't negate the work you did learning those things.

"Everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life thinking it's stupid." - Einstein

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe that it's coincidence that every person I've ever come across that has been proclaimed a genius at whatever has had this very same sentiment to express. There was a grain of talent and a moment of inspiration that led to a dogged pursuit of their interest. People are quick to write it off as "oh, they had talent" or "oh they were a genius", but I'm reasonably confident given the number of amazing peop…

Perhaps true geniuses know the social value of humility.

> True geniuses know the social value of humility.

Wouldn't you have to be a genius to be able to make such an evaluation?

Re: Lessons from a 45-year Study of Super-Smart Children

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calculus has a myth built up around it on how hard it is. A kindly professor once showed me how it worked in about a half hour, and I was like "is that all"? Of course that wasn't all, but that bit of help served me very well for years of more advanced math.

I tried to learn calculus a couple of times but always get stuck on integrals. I'm pretty sure when I was 10 I would also have gotten stuck there.

Forget the algebraic mechanics of symbolically evaluating an integral -- let a CAS do that for you -- and just focus on the relationship to the shape of the function being integrated.
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