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Wikileaks has really misled the public

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Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#111

Post by gruseom »

foldr wrote: post #101
gruseom wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that we ask soldiers to kill people, we don't ask them to rape them. To ask, pay, and celebrate them for doing the former and then fastidiously insist that they only do it in a way that conforms to our hero fantasies is incongruent. That being said, it is naive to unleash violence and not expect it to spill over. So I guess in the case of war rape I would say that while it's not prissy to be outrage…

>To ask, pay, and celebrate them for doing the former and then fastidiously insist that they only do it in a way that conforms to our hero fantasies is incongruent. Well, it would be incongruent to do that, yes, but I don't ask them or pay them or celebrate them. I expect the soldiers in the video are just doing what a lot of people would do in the same situation. That might make their behavior in some sense "normal"…

Most of what you're saying could equally well be applied to (e.g.) criticism of suicide bombers

This is an example of what I meant by going off the rails. You're extrapolating way beyond anything I said, implied, or thought. Premature generalization is the root of all... something.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#113

Post by jacquesm »

jpwagner wrote: post #91
analyst74 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my friend went to Iraq, I'd rather him coming back in one piece too. Good thing that none of my friends went, your friends do not have to go either.

your friends do not have to go either wow...if you delete your post, i promise i'll delete my quoting you to remove the evidence of your ignorance.

The American army no longer uses conscription to fill its ranks.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#114

Post by david927 »

Make no mistake: this footage is significant. This is America's Jallianwala Bagh. This is the wholesale firing on unarmed civilians as an everyday activity.

To say, "But they were in a war zone," is disingenuous. America made it a war zone. America came there under a false premise and won't leave.

And how can they ever leave? Iraq is above nothing less than an ocean of untapped oil at a time when the Saudi fields are declining. Iraq is an OPEC breaker. And it's that dedicated supply in a time when the world's biggest industry had the price skyrocket in a few years from $20 to around $90. America is one of the only countries that can't survive if oil hits about $120 for any extended period. This isn't about money; this is about survival.

But when you find yourself killing unarmed civilians because they have under their feet an untapped fortune, because they have under their feet what you need to keep your lifestyle, you have to stop and look at yourself in the mirror at what you've become.

Wikileaks didn't mislead us. The U.S. Government mislead us, and worse, we mislead ourselves.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#116

Post by jacquesm »

Vivtek wrote: post #67
cellis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality be damned. Hindsight is 20/20. Imagine you're there, in the arena, adrenaline practically oozing out of your pores. You're 500 feet above the one of the most dangerous cities in the world [1], a warzone that's claimed the lives of thousands of young men, just like you, and you've just taken out the armed enemy. That was the enemy. And that guy laying there still is the enemy. And so is anyone helping him.…

The reality is that it is fucking stupid to put young Americans and young Iraqis alike into that situation to start with. It was stupid in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and it is still fucking stupid in 2010, because we've shoveled mountains of money into Iraq and mountains of dead people of various nationalities out of it, and nobody can tell me exactly what we've gained. This is because even though nobo…

> nobody can tell me exactly what we've gained.

Oil contracts in us$?

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#117

Post by ErrantX »

KirinDave wrote: post #98
otto wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, the vehicle was already transporting suspects. That's like using a medical vehicle to transport combatants and then come back and pick up the wounded from the same vehicle.

You need to watch the video again. This time, turn off the sound and ignore the captions. A man covered in blood is crawling along the side of the road as you drive by. You say, "My god! This man is injured! We need to help him!" You and your friend jump out to help an injured man, not really sure what's going on, and tell your children to wait in the car. Suddenly you're dead, because a helicopter flying high overhe…

There are some problems specifically in you analysis.

> Suddenly you're dead, because a helicopter flying high overhead killed you instantly because you were moving an injured man.

Im not sure if it was just your wording but it was several minutes before they fired on them.

> it's very clear that these people had no connection to any activity on the scene. The Van is nowhere in sight until the very end of the engagement.

Have you watched the full 39 minute video? I've only had time to watch it once (so am withholding my full analysis of the engagement) but the same van is visible near the start of the video. It may not have been the same van but it seems a natural and fair assumption that it might be.

Saying things like "it is clear" based on the single perspective of the Apache gunship seems a little clear cut...

(not that I disagree entirely with your point)

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#118

Post by ErrantX »

ahlatimer wrote: post #108
tsally wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was running an insurgency in Iraq, I would keep a guy in the back of an unmarked van with an RPG and I would drive around pretending to pick up bodies. I think I'd probably get a lot of kills that way. I don't think it's fair to say the van was clearly unarmed, especially when you consider the fact that the van could have been called in to make a pickup by a group of people confirmed to have at least one RPG and…

It doesn't surprise me they found an RPG on the ground after the chopper reported there was one. I have it on good authority from people who were actually on the ground that soldiers regularly keep RPG's and AK-47's in the Humvees such that if they do kill an innocent civilian, they just place the AK-47 or RPG on or near the victim to make them look like an insurgent. I don't know if that's what happened in this part…

I hesitated before downvoting you; but I feel I have to because it's very easy (even with the edit) to make these claims online with little or no substance.

I feel if this was readily admitted to yourself it would have been admitted to others too and, by now, made it to the mainstream news. Where it would have been a massive, massive story.

I also feel all we have is your word and really that's not enough for such a huge claim!

Finally statements such as whether people want to accept it or not sound a lot like "typical" internet style rhetoric used to attach credence to a story.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#119

Post by david927 »

zaphar wrote: post #15
jrockway wrote: post #11

Blame the victim. They shouldn't have been in Iraq. They shouldn't have been near someone bad. They should have marked the van. You shouldn't have murdered them. Killing should be the last resort, even in the heat of battle.

ummmm no. The whole point of the heat of battle is death. What you mean I think is that getting into the heat of battle should be the last resort.

Battle? America wasn't invited into Iraq. It came there because it said there were WMD's there. There weren't. Now it won't leave.

America is committing a crime every second it stays there. The word battle doesn't even make sense here.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#120

Post by motters »

For anyone who watched the video, attempts to support the actions of the helicopter gunner seem to be on very shaky grounds indeed. The victims are mostly, or entirely, unarmed and attacking people trying to rescue the injured is an act of questionable legality. This looks like a war crime similar to those committed in Vietnam.
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