ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down • Hacker News Board

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#171

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

dccoolgai wrote: post #161

dionidium wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By positioning themselves as the no-nonsense-career-training, direct-path-to-a-job alternative? Is that what you mean?

I think that is maybe where my uncomfortable feeling comes from: community college seems like an "extension" of the grand idea of higher education (which is awesome for people that want that!)- become a more well-rounded person, read the classics, learn history and art appreciation, etc. etc. - it's what I did, and I enjoyed it... but I know I'm not everyone. I grew up in a very poor place where it might just serve p…

Community colleges (at least the one's I've seen) tend to have both traditional academic programs intended to fill the lower division of a classical four-year college program and vocational programs leading to a two-year degree or vocational certificate (or where you might just take a few ad hoc classes for career advancement without enrolling in any kind of certificate/degree program.)

The idea that the ITTs of the world are more effective for vocational education than Community Colleges is a product of the massive marketing campaigns of ITT-style for-profit institutions more than any reality, as far as I can tell,

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#172

Post by matchagaucho » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

It's one thing for a school to recruit students that aren't prepared for the curriculum, and subsequent debt.

But it's quite another problem if the school loses their accreditation and is unable to deliver a quality education.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#173

Post by thearn4 » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:00 PM UTC

Yhippa wrote: post #45

aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

I've always been a huge fan of community colleges. Partly because I came up through one.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#174

Post by bduerst » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:05 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #132

ams6110 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy student loans for worthless education is what created the problem of sham for-profit universities to begin with.

Yes, and the reason that there were easy student loans for worthless education is because of laxity in the accreditation system on which reliance is placed to assure that education is not worthless, and because of a historical lack of accountability for frauds on the part of certain (particularly for-profit, who have the strongest incentive for fraud) institutions. The recent issues at Corinthian and ITT (including t…

Who were they accredited by and for how long?

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#175

Post by jotato » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:08 PM UTC

johnward wrote: post #145

jotato wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I graduated in 2005 from ITT in Pittsburgh and the total cost was a hair under 28K. I got a few grants, but had less than 20K in debt when I graduated. Was the pricing really that different where you went? Also, that was over 10 years ago. I haven't had any employer really care that I went to ITT. Honestly in the last 5 or 6 years no employer even asked where I went. Where I am now most care about real world experien…

Pittsburgh 2006 and I had about 40k in loans. Paid off my loans and have about 20k left to pay on my moms parent plus loan. As for the employment situation. I think I might get filtered out simply for not having a BS sometimes. Sometimes I leave education off my resume and then I can discuss it when the recruiter calls and explain WHY I went there. Other than that I just climbed the industry ladder over the last 10 y…

'The classes at ITT Greentree were laughable. I learned more just tinkering on my own. They were so easy to pass and you could tell the instructors were used to underachievers.'

I was at Moon. I worked there as a lab assistant and became friends with the instructors. I approached a few about this, and was told in confidence they are not allowed to fail students without approval from the director. Really, the only grounds for not passing were never (literally) showing up for class. If a student came just once they had to find a way to pass them. Usually this meant I had to tutor them.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#176

Post by jayess » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #109

donatj wrote: post #54

I went to a similar for-profit school in Minnesota who also similarly shut down last year. I still feel like they get a bad rap. Was it overpriced? Probably. Did I learn a ton and have small class sizes. Absolutely. The instructors had all previously worked in the industry, and knew their topics very well. On top of all that, after graduation their persistent pestering of "how many places did you apply to this week?"…

While there may well be more bad (by whatever metric) for-profit colleges there are also bad non-profit colleges. And non-profit itself is a bit of misnomer. It is true that registered non-profits can't pay dividends to their shareholders, but they can and sometimes do pay exorbitant salaries to those that have control over them. As the gainful employment rule[1] currently stands it exempts degree programs from publi…

No idea why you're getting downvoted. The same rules should apply across the board.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#177

Post by TwoFactor » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:09 PM UTC

joedissmeyer wrote: post #20

I am personaly happy to see the hammer come down on these for-profit universities. I too feel for the students as I was one of the Corinthian Colleges students a few years ago at Everest University through one of the Florida campuses. My degree program was the A.S. in Computer Information Sciences -- such a waste. Look up the job placement rates for that program in 2010, just insane. Thankfully I too have been able t…

I tried googling the A.S. in Computer Information Sciences job placement rates and couldn't find anything. Do you have a link?

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#178

Post by ahallock » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #118

qaq wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's hard to draw the line, how do you disincentivize undesired behaviour if you pick up the tab for any stupid thing anyone does?

One, an excessive focus on trying to "disincentivize undesired behaviour" is pretty creepy and controlling. Two, this is not a matter of poor life decisions, this is a matter of fraud. Three, even if people are impoverished by stupidity, you're either gonna pick up the tab to some extent or literally watch them die of destitution on the street . It appals me sometimes how often America treats this like it was a choic…

But forcing others to pay isn't controlling? I agree they were victims of fraud, but you should still not force others to pay for that at gunpoint. There must be a more peaceful way. And saying "literally watch them die of destitution on the street" is just a cheap, emotional straw man. No one is saying that.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#179

Post by mbesto » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

joedissmeyer wrote: post #20

I am personaly happy to see the hammer come down on these for-profit universities. I too feel for the students as I was one of the Corinthian Colleges students a few years ago at Everest University through one of the Florida campuses. My degree program was the A.S. in Computer Information Sciences -- such a waste. Look up the job placement rates for that program in 2010, just insane. Thankfully I too have been able t…

The higher-ed debt bubble already started, it's just about to pop me thinks:

https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AAPOL&fstype=ii&ei=...

https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3ADV&fstype=ii&ei=HvnO...

https://www.google.com/finance?q=OTCMKTS%3ACOCOQ&fstype=ii&e...

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#180

Post by colechristensen » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 5:15 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #150

swalsh wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went there for 2 semesters. I cancelled after one of the "professors" showed up hung over. The education was very low quality.

Sounds like a lot of hit and miss with these schools. With the rise of bootcamps as well, I wonder - is there any organization / website / agency compiling and auditing a list of these types of schools? It'd be great to be able to say "I want to become a pipeline designer" and knowing with Better Business Bureau level of confidence that I was choosing a good training program.

This is what accreditation is supposed to be for.

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/

It does need to be reformed a bit though for what you might call the 'low end' ... that is training programs finely tuned for specific skills.