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ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

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Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#161

Post by dccoolgai »

dionidium wrote: post #52
tptacek wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with for-profit schools like ITT and Phoenix is clearer when you see those companies as a sustained effort to profit by delegitimizing community college.

By positioning themselves as the no-nonsense-career-training, direct-path-to-a-job alternative? Is that what you mean?

I think that is maybe where my uncomfortable feeling comes from: community college seems like an "extension" of the grand idea of higher education (which is awesome for people that want that!)- become a more well-rounded person, read the classics, learn history and art appreciation, etc. etc. - it's what I did, and I enjoyed it... but I know I'm not everyone. I grew up in a very poor place where it might just serve people better to "learn the things you need to know to pass for XYZ 9-5 job" and from what I read ITT (sort of) fit the bill. I worry that we're saying "You can't do that - you have to go try and be a well-rounded renaissance man/woman"... now I know that with federal money, maybe we have the right to say it, but still...

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#162

Post by scarface74 »

Yhippa wrote: post #45
aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

I see more of a case against going to a four year college for a lot of people instead of just going to a much cheaper 2 year college for the first two years and transferring to get a 4 year degree. Most state four year colleges have a transfer program.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#163

Post by ssharp »

Yhippa wrote: post #45
aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

When I was an undergrad, many years ago in my home state of Ohio, community colleges were definitely looked down on as being "lesser" than four-year universities, even if the universities were offering two-year Associates programs.

However, the State of Ohio overhauled how it helps funds state universities, where funds are allocated based on graduation rather than enrollment. As a result, state universities have started shifting more and more students to take low level courses at whatever community college, or colleges, they partner with. In particular, students with higher drop-out risk also get sent over to the community college.

I think that, along with many of the State's public universities slashing tuition on entry-level courses have helped improve the cost burden of higher education, particularly for those high-risk groups where they only take a few classes and fail to complete the program.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#164

Post by dragonwriter »

criddell wrote: post #94
dionidium wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's on this page, for the curious: http://programinfo.itt-tech.edu/consumerinfo/

Why didn't ITT seek accreditation so that credits were transferable? It seems like it would instantly increase the value of what they are selling.

> Why didn't ITT seek accreditation so that credits were transferable?

Accreditation and transferability are different issues; ITT was accredited (were it not, it could not have participated in federal aid programs.)

> It seems like it would instantly increase the value of what they are selling.

Like Corinthian, what they were selling was largely fantasies, specifically targeted to demographics who were unlikely to recognize that they were fantasies. Were ITT intending to sell a legitimate education, sure, transferability would increase the value, but they were never going to sell legitimate education at the mass-market volume and premium prices they were trying to sell at.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#165

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

logfromblammo wrote: post #144
GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about 'fully funding public colleges' instead so that kids don't have to go into crippling debt to go there.

Judging by history, this would be seen as a license to artificially inflate costs, such that the university system would become a machine for extracting money from the public treasury and placing it into private hands. You must have some feedback control, wherein the amount of public funding is dependent upon some objective criterion that measures the extent to which the public college provides a useful service to th…

Judging from history, cheap colleges in the post-war decades worked just fine for the boomers.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#166

Post by pkaye »

tptacek wrote: post #9
kayla210 wrote: post #5

I really feel for all the students who are so close to graduating and not knowing if they'll have anything to show for it.. And their credits will most likely not transfer to another school because of the different accreditations.

That their credits had virtually no chance of transferring to any other institution --- a point ITT was forced to make on its own website --- is a pretty good reason not to allow it to be the beneficiary of billions of dollars of public financing.

I graduated with a BS degree in the UC system and many years later decided to get another in the CSU system and even then there were difficulty getting transfer credits for base classes to get the second degree.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#167

Post by kbenson »

trefn wrote: post #124
kbenson wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea, but our local community (junior) college is so highly regarded that our high schools generally recommended it as a good course for many, if not most, students. It routinely ranks in the top 5 of the AMATYC[1], and has transfer programs set up with many of the UC/CS colleges in state so you are guaranteed entry in those colleges if you complete the requirement classes with a certain GPA, regardless of…

What's your local community college?

Santa Rosa Junior College[1]. I just looked up AMATYC rankings, and apparently they haven't placed since 2003-2004. I'm not sure if that's because of their math department degrading, or other colleges stepping up their game, or some failure at the state K12 level in supplying fundamentals (since the contest is based on student performance). It's possible my information is somewhat out of date (I went through there around 2000), but the first of my children will be making choices about colleges in a few years, and I was leaning towards recommending it (but haven't closely looked at it again recently).

From my experience at that time, it didn't feel significantly different than the campus I transferred to, except that the math classes at the Junior College were actually significantly harder, or at least more intense.

1: https://www.santarosa.edu/

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#168

Post by tickthokk »

jotato wrote: post #119
tickthokk wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I took a look, and that's great information for any current student, or students with outstanding loans. However, I was mostly joking; I've actually already paid them off completely, years ago, which wouldn't have been possible without my lovely wife. So the word "refund" was used purposefully, and getting one is likely improbable, haha. For years it was always a struggle of bashing ITT with my colleagues/the…

I graduated in 2005 from ITT in Pittsburgh and the total cost was a hair under 28K. I got a few grants, but had less than 20K in debt when I graduated. Was the pricing really that different where you went? Also, that was over 10 years ago. I haven't had any employer really care that I went to ITT. Honestly in the last 5 or 6 years no employer even asked where I went. Where I am now most care about real world experien…

Dayton OH, no grants or anything. I've listed ITT on my resume, but never had a real discussion with an employer about it. They see Deans List (laughably easy) and just check their box. As the adjacent poster was saying, I may just leave them off future resumes, or put my degree as a footnote. Being a Web Developer for well over 10 years at this point trumps the value of any degree.

I think my only point was that it's _only_ value was what employers thought of them, which had a low rank on the value scale as it was, and now even that's gone. At this point I spent 40k for _literally_ nothing.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#169

Post by dragonwriter »

logfromblammo wrote: post #105
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or aggressively recruit you by calling you non-stop and using manipulative pressure tactics Wow, you just reminded me of something funny that happened about 15 years ago. A younger friend of mine was interested in tech, and knew I was "good with computers". They had taken some online quiz, and said I should take it. So I took it, and filled out my info thinking I might win something (I was young, and didn't particula…

Never mind pushy . How do rude salespeople even exist? I have never even liked the concept of a salesperson, as distinct from a vendor's point-of-sale clerk. I don't like to haggle; I check competitor prices, and use advertised sales or coupons.

> Never mind pushy. How do rude salespeople even exist?

They exist because people who give in to avoid conflict exist, so pushy and rude both, in certain contexts and with certain target audiences, work in sales.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#170

Post by jnbiche »

swalsh wrote: post #111
SteveNuts wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanford Brown (or just Brown)? Same here... I loved it and it got me a great job. Is it prestigious? Nope. But it got the job done and I was done in 2 years.

I went there for 2 semesters. I cancelled after one of the "professors" showed up hung over. The education was very low quality.

> I cancelled after one of the "professors" showed up hung over.

For the record, professors occasionally showing up hungover is by no means means confined to ITT. I went to a fairly good public university, and I had a few professors who came to an early-morning class obviously hungover once or twice (and 1 of them was a pretty good teacher). I'm quite sure the same thing sometimes happens at Ivy League schools as well.

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