ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down • Hacker News Board

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#151

Post by mikestew » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #143

mikestew wrote: post #104

I'll preface this with my lack of any love for ITT, but there's a piece of the story that bothers me: "Last month, the feds demanded the company produce an additional $153 million in collateral—nearly double its $78 million in cash on hand—to cover possible losses that the government might incur if the company were to suddenly fail." Here's how that sounds to me: "Well, ITT technically hasn't done anything illegal. B…

> "Well, ITT technically hasn't done anything illegal. [...]" The DOE action is based on a risk of business failure produced by fraud lawsuits by the SEC (for securities fraud) and CFPB (for consumer fraud) against ITT, both directly and because the costs and potential fundamental issues with ITTs then-existing business model revealed by those lawsuits also led to the risk of losing the accreditation from its accredi…

The DOE action is based on a risk of business failure produced by fraud lawsuits by the SEC (for securities fraud) and CFPB (for consumer fraud) against ITT

Ah, thanks, that clears it up for me.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#152

Post by Retric » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

TillE wrote: post #95

tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the non-profit school system "inflexible"? You don't have to attend a major research university at all, let alone for your first several years worth of credit hours. There are more than 1,500 community colleges in the US, with flexible scheduling and costs per credit hour that are a fraction of major schools. The marketing notion that the options are solely UCLA or ITT Tech is part of the problem with for-prof…

And community colleges typically feed directly into the state school system, some of which (eg, SUNY) are very good and still very affordable. There are a few legacy bits of the typical university which need changing (big lecture hall courses are pointless when you can just distribute video), but for the most part it's a solid system which is unlikely to be 'disrupted' by for-profit businesses.

Collage students are generally bad at working at a steady pace when given self directed classes they don't really like. So, having a specific time when lecture takes place even if it's just a video has merit.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#153

Post by Geekette » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

Too little, too late; ITT and a whole legion of similar schools should have been erased long ago, given glaring evidence of their mismanagment, often misleading/fraudulent advertising, almost no value delivered (e.g. dismal grad job stats), waste of public money, etc. The pressing question is how long before ITT re-opens under a new name; I highly doubt it'll just go away.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#154

Post by qaq » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #118

qaq wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's hard to draw the line, how do you disincentivize undesired behaviour if you pick up the tab for any stupid thing anyone does?

One, an excessive focus on trying to "disincentivize undesired behaviour" is pretty creepy and controlling. Two, this is not a matter of poor life decisions, this is a matter of fraud. Three, even if people are impoverished by stupidity, you're either gonna pick up the tab to some extent or literally watch them die of destitution on the street . It appals me sometimes how often America treats this like it was a choic…

I have no problem with people exercising free will, now if they expect someone else to pay for the consequences thats a different topic. It is a choice none forces anyone to not do a basic google search before dropping huge amount of money on something.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#155

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:43 PM UTC

xenadu02 wrote: post #86

Federal student loans shouldn't be available to any non-accredited institution. If your credit hours won't transfer then it isn't a real College or University.

> Federal student loans shouldn't be available to any non-accredited institution.

ITT was accredited by an accreditor recognized by the government (though, among their many other problems, that accreditor has, this year, been formally recommended to be removed from that list of recognized accreditors; and even if they weren't removed, they had notified ITT that ITT's accreditation was in jeopardy -- that jeopardy was, in fact, the main direct basis of the recent DOE actions against ITT [the other direct basis is the risk associated with the fraud lawsuits against ITT, which are also the basis for the accreditation risk].)

> If your credit hours won't transfer then it isn't a real College or University.

Transferrability is a different issue than accreditation, and often differs strongly from receiving school to receiving school.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#156

Post by kajjffkk » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Yhippa wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

My local one has cut back on everything in the last few years. No more counselors - just use the online tools! And they're mostly about getting federal financial aid. Placement consists mostly of 'apprentice' positions which means a vanload of students running the back end of a restaurant somewhere all summer and sharing an apartment meant for 2. Strangely they don't advertise at all - at least in the media I see. Wh…

>No more counselors - just use the online tools!

N=1 here, but I got no apparent utility from the existence of counselors in high school or college.

In retrospect they handled some registering paperwork for me, but they also planned my coursework for me as if I were the median student. In high school I had to press the counselor to let me take more AP courses than she thought was wise.

In college, it was more of a rubber stamp thing, where the counselor just approved my choices because they lined up with degree requirements.

Other than officially validating that my classes met the degree requirements, there was no value add. I'm glad to see someone at the helm realized a computer can do that just as well or better.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#157

Post by kajjffkk » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #59

Yhippa wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

My local one has cut back on everything in the last few years. No more counselors - just use the online tools! And they're mostly about getting federal financial aid. Placement consists mostly of 'apprentice' positions which means a vanload of students running the back end of a restaurant somewhere all summer and sharing an apartment meant for 2. Strangely they don't advertise at all - at least in the media I see. Wh…

>No more counselors - just use the online tools!

N=1 here, but I had 0 use for the counselors in high school or college.

In retrospect they handled some registering paperwork for me, but they also planned my coursework for me as if I were the median student.

In high school I had to press the counselor to make more AP courses than she thought was wise. In college, it was more of a rubber stamp thing, where the counselor just approved my choices because they lined up with degree requirements.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#158

Post by qaq » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #99

qaq wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you draw the line? A lot of people make stupid choices do we pick up the tab for any stupid decision anyone makes?

There's a difference between a stupid decision and being defrauded. A debt incurred as a result of fraud should simply be null and void. Probably the best way to do this is to make it the fraudster's debt, and not the victim's.

None would argue with second part. I would say not doing a google search before spending 10k+ is closer to stupid action .

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#159

Post by Phlarp » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

swalsh wrote: post #111

SteveNuts wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanford Brown (or just Brown)? Same here... I loved it and it got me a great job. Is it prestigious? Nope. But it got the job done and I was done in 2 years.

I went there for 2 semesters. I cancelled after one of the "professors" showed up hung over. The education was very low quality.

FWIW: I went to a "real" university (University of Minnesota) and hung-over professors / TAs in large lecture classes or their related lab sessions wasn't a surprising occurrence-- at least in the general classes that everyone was required to take.

I had a math professor freshman year that explicitly canceled a lecture due to him having a hangover. Honestly this seems like a relatively minor nit to pick, as there are far greater issues to be concerned with at all levels of higher education-- for profit or otherwise.

None of my professors for technology related classes ever did this, but they also had about 6 months of legitimate industry experience between them so caveat emptor with anybody who wants you to take out a loan to pay for their "education".

(Having said all of this, the slip of paper has still been worth more than it's weight in gold, for me.)

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#160

Post by MagnumOpus » Tue, Sep 06, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #77

johan_larson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen some discussion of letting credits transfer using something called Prior Learning Assessment, essentially having the student prove they've learned the material taught in various courses at the receiving institution. http://suburbdad.blogspot.ca/2016/09/friday-fragments.html Transfer of any sort tends to be tricky. You rarely get anything close to parity, particularly in core courses.

Most schools will let you test out of pre-reqs if you get the right people on board. I've never heard of a school accepting prior learning as credit hours. If that were the case anyone who figures out what they want to do and starts doing it in high-school would test out of a year or so worth of classes right off the bat. This would be particularly prevalent in STEM where there's a lot more test and "prove you know t…

> If that were the case anyone who figures out what they want to do and starts doing it in high-school would test out of a year or so worth of classes right off the bat

Which is bad for the bottom line, but would be the disruption that higher ed needs. Face it, universities' USP is now being credentialing machines, learning can be done quicker and better from internet moocs/OCW/video lectures/tutorials.