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ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

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Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#91

Post by qaq »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #84
qaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should avg. taxpayer take on this burden?

Fuck the word taxpayer, it's a lie hiding in a literalism. It pretends that people are paying for some service and they could stop. No. Society, as individuals on behalf of the whole, has responsibilities . One of those is to pick up the tab when people's lives have been ruined through no fault of their own. The whole "small government" thing has just been people blowing off their responsibilities.

Where do you draw the line? A lot of people make stupid choices do we pick up the tab for any stupid decision anyone makes?

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#92

Post by koolba »

tamana wrote: post #72
koolba wrote: post #15

Question for lawyers in the audience: If ITT is shut down because the "education" it was providing was complete shit and not recognized anywhere else, does that mean that the usual rules about education related personal debt surviving bankruptcy wouldn't apply?

There are various ways to get loan forgiveness for these loans, for reasons as you suggest, before the bankruptcy question. But pity the fool who paid off their loan and is now bankrupt.

> But pity the fool who paid off their loan and is now bankrupt.

Sadly that's becoming more and more common a trend in this country. It's the same as all the poor chaps who kept trying to pay their underwater mortgages while they're neighbors squatted for free.

Honest Joe seems to never catch a break :(

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#93

Post by qaq »

slfnflctd wrote: post #57
qaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should avg. taxpayer take on this burden?

Better question: Why shouldn't they? These are almost all going to be, by definition, disadvantaged people who have been lied to and defrauded. Yes, they 'chose' to do this, but the staggering amount of misleading advertising (and the worst kinds of sleazy-salesman lies & emotional manipulation of the vulnerable) leaves plenty of doubt as to how much of a choice they had. I see very little difference between helping…

Because it's hard to draw the line, how do you disincentivize undesired behaviour if you pick up the tab for any stupid thing anyone does?

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#94

Post by criddell »

dionidium wrote: post #12
tptacek wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That their credits had virtually no chance of transferring to any other institution --- a point ITT was forced to make on its own website --- is a pretty good reason not to allow it to be the beneficiary of billions of dollars of public financing.

It's on this page, for the curious: http://programinfo.itt-tech.edu/consumerinfo/

Why didn't ITT seek accreditation so that credits were transferable? It seems like it would instantly increase the value of what they are selling.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#95

Post by TillE »

tptacek wrote: post #76
rayvd wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we should have more of them. When they're not meeting the expectations of their students, the students go elsewhere and the school is forced to close. Far cry from the current entrenched and inflexible education system.

How is the non-profit school system "inflexible"? You don't have to attend a major research university at all, let alone for your first several years worth of credit hours. There are more than 1,500 community colleges in the US, with flexible scheduling and costs per credit hour that are a fraction of major schools. The marketing notion that the options are solely UCLA or ITT Tech is part of the problem with for-prof…

And community colleges typically feed directly into the state school system, some of which (eg, SUNY) are very good and still very affordable.

There are a few legacy bits of the typical university which need changing (big lecture hall courses are pointless when you can just distribute video), but for the most part it's a solid system which is unlikely to be 'disrupted' by for-profit businesses.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#96

Post by scotch_drinker »

tptacek wrote: post #76
rayvd wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we should have more of them. When they're not meeting the expectations of their students, the students go elsewhere and the school is forced to close. Far cry from the current entrenched and inflexible education system.

How is the non-profit school system "inflexible"? You don't have to attend a major research university at all, let alone for your first several years worth of credit hours. There are more than 1,500 community colleges in the US, with flexible scheduling and costs per credit hour that are a fraction of major schools. The marketing notion that the options are solely UCLA or ITT Tech is part of the problem with for-prof…

In my mind, the ITTs of the world compete with community colleges for students. Are admissions requirements drastically different between the two types of schools? If not, why do people object to for-profit colleges?

It seems like there is little accountability in either community colleges or for-profit schools when it comes to accepting students. Both are incentivized to have as many students as possible regardless of eventual performance. But I'm not familiar with any fundamental differences between the two when it comes to admission standards or accountability.

EDIT: I see farther down where you comment regarding the non-transferability of credits at for-profit schools which is a huge difference. That seems to be a glaring hole in the for-profit industry that should be closed in order to get federal funding. But that probably opens an entirely different can of worms.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#97

Post by kbenson »

Yhippa wrote: post #45
aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

What's the case against community colleges historically? I graduated from university a while ago and still take a community college course from anything from math to photography when I have the time. I have been largely impressed by what they have to offer.

I have no idea, but our local community (junior) college is so highly regarded that our high schools generally recommended it as a good course for many, if not most, students. It routinely ranks in the top 5 of the AMATYC[1], and has transfer programs set up with many of the UC/CS colleges in state so you are guaranteed entry in those colleges if you complete the requirement classes with a certain GPA, regardless of high school performance (or completion!). Guaranteed transfer to UCLA or UC Berkeley as a science major at a fraction of the cost with half your college credits taken care of is nothing to sneeze at.

1: http://www.amatyc.org/

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#98

Post by liveoneggs »

aaronchall wrote: post #35

The dream: take students who are mostly unprepared to succeed at college and educate & prepare them for success in the real world. The reality: most of these students will not realize a return on the investment of their time and acquisition of a ton of debt that they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. Many will fail to attend class, fail to take notes, fail to do homework, fail to learn, and will not complete - but beca…

How is this different from the huge numbers of people who drop out of traditional universities?

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#99

Post by JulianMorrison »

qaq wrote: post #91
JulianMorrison wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck the word taxpayer, it's a lie hiding in a literalism. It pretends that people are paying for some service and they could stop. No. Society, as individuals on behalf of the whole, has responsibilities . One of those is to pick up the tab when people's lives have been ruined through no fault of their own. The whole "small government" thing has just been people blowing off their responsibilities.

Where do you draw the line? A lot of people make stupid choices do we pick up the tab for any stupid decision anyone makes?

There's a difference between a stupid decision and being defrauded. A debt incurred as a result of fraud should simply be null and void. Probably the best way to do this is to make it the fraudster's debt, and not the victim's.

Re: ITT Technical Institutes Shuts Down

#100

Post by tickthokk »

Unbeliever69 wrote: post #53
tickthokk wrote: post #4

As a 2005 graduate of ITT, I'm glad. This was a long time coming. Now if only I could get my loans refunded :p

Check out the DOE website. You most likely will be able to get some student loan forgiveness.

Thanks, I took a look, and that's great information for any current student, or students with outstanding loans. However, I was mostly joking; I've actually already paid them off completely, years ago, which wouldn't have been possible without my lovely wife. So the word "refund" was used purposefully, and getting one is likely improbable, haha.

For years it was always a struggle of bashing ITT with my colleagues/the internet, but talking them up with potential employers. The only thing $40k of debt got me was the perceived prestige an employer likely already had of ITT. Now that they're defunct there's definitely no up-selling them.

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