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How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

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Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#51

> How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University I wonder if it's even possible. Learning maths requires much work, time and dedication. Doing so alone must be very difficult. There are several things universities provide that are hard to replicate alone: a degree, which gives you access to a job, motivation, learning environment, and "peace of mind". What I mean by peace of mind is that, when you're…

One problem is understanding the notation, as sometimes steps are omitted. I remember one time spending 10 minutes trying to figure out what an author meant, only to learn later he was using something called a 'total derivative'. this means that variables like x,y are actually functions of time . Having a professional simply explain it instead of having to infer the meaning from the author would save a lot of time

As someone that learned some math in university about 20 years ago, and probably have forgotten most of it, I have a hard time when reading something mathematical that interrests me today.

Maybe the authors of the papers that I read aren't always that pedagogical, and I get totally lost when someone tosses in a variable only to half-heartedly define what it is a page later.

I think it's mostly due to that I suck at math, and need to figure out obvious things on my own - but perhaps also due to my programmer-view of the world were you typically define things before you use them...

But learning on your own is probably hard. I got irritated once when I needed some not totally trivial transformations for a GIS application. I spent some evenings repeating from my old books, but it was unfathomably boring, so I gave up as soon as I got my transformation working :-) c

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#52
post #32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a math grad student, I can say that this Chicago list has primarily books that mathematicians know. The one posted here has primarily books that I am unfamiliar with. If one were to follow that one, other people trained in math would have a hard to judging what you've done (it's common to say things like "I've learned algebra at the level of Dummit and Foote" but this only works if people know the book you're refe…

> Perhaps they're more common in the UK than the US? I can't speak for all universities over here, but my undergrad had a single textbook from what I recall. The rest were all printed notes or simply lecturers writing with astonishing speed on the blackboards. There was certainly extra reading we could do, and I'm sure someone did. But most of the learning was from attending lectures and watching someone go through t…

That's sounds typical for a graduate course in the US and atypical for an undergraduate, even an advanced undergraduate course. Most assign problems from texts and will have one or two texts that are required or possibly strongly suggested to have. On the other hand, many students don't really read the texts except for the questions. In graduate courses there are usually just a few suggested books you could use if you wanted to.

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#53
On the face of it this looks more like studying than learning. The distinction is not meaningless. I studied French for six years and passed an exam at the end. However despite all this activity I have never been able to converse in French. By a variant of Gell-Mann Amnesia effect, I conclude that I cannot do mathematics either.

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#55
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wonder if it's even possible. From a practical perspective it definitely is. I've picked up a fair amount of graph theory and with nothing but extreme persistence have grokked and used some fairly advanced stuff[1][2] (2nd-year dropout). It was, however, work-related. Just don't ask me to proof anything. > the few lucrative jobs that make use of maths are in finance There is also competency on the table here. Gra…

>Just don't ask me to proof anything I don't mean to offend, but being able to prove things is generally the main focus of advanced mathematics. If you can't prove what you know, or at least have a rough outline of a proof you could construct after referring to something, you haven't learned it in the same way those at a university have.

>I don't mean to offend, but being able to prove things is generally the main focus of advanced mathematics.

That rather depends on the field. For engineers, the main focus of advanced mathematics is to be able to apply it to real world problems.

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#56
post #47

> How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University I wonder if it's even possible. Learning maths requires much work, time and dedication. Doing so alone must be very difficult. There are several things universities provide that are hard to replicate alone: a degree, which gives you access to a job, motivation, learning environment, and "peace of mind". What I mean by peace of mind is that, when you're…

I really hope this doesn't come across as brash. I don't mean it to, but I must disagree with your assertions (In my case at least). Learning advanced mathematics without university is completely possible. Because it is at your own learning pace. Not one of a University. I graduated several years ago with a BS in Computer Science, with a Focus on Networking. And during that time, I held 3 part time jobs while also be…

I'm glad you had success but...let's not measure your outlier experience with the rest of the world. Especially in Adv Mathematics.

I'd point you and other HNs to Srinivasa Ramanujan. He is self taught but...he was wrong [1]. He had a brilliant mind but...due to being self taught, he made some critical mistakes.

Being self taught can easily lead the learner to some critical mistakes. Eventually, they may be corrected (and at what 'cost' does this mistake cause an organization or business or those involved) but it's more efficient of someone's time to just learn from another. I'm not saying everyone needs a University Degree. I'm saying that everyone needs a teacher. Everyone. Why? Because instead of 'the blind leading the blind' (you as a 'blind' teacher, leading you as a 'blind' learner). You have the efficiency of being led by a mentor of some kind that can steer you away from faulty concepts that may come in.

It's great that we now have more free/cheap materials than ever before at our disposal but without a mentor or some kind of peer-review, we could be misapplying concepts.

Also, to comment on something you specifically said:

> Because in my companies view, being able to teach yourself all that math is much more impressive than being taught from a University.

Yes, it's 'impressive' but...most don't learn this way. Which is way it's 'impressive'. Also, being self-taught, how do you truly verify what you understand mathematically is accurate and solid? [2] You might be and I'm not going to fault you but learning concepts is one thing but applying them is even more challenging. It's one thing to be 'impressive', it's a whole other thing to have mastery over a topic. And I'm a firm believer mastery is mostly achieved with peer/mentor feedback.

I applaud you but let's not steer others to just teach themselves, without help from others. Let's encourage self taught and peer feedback. It's not one or the other, it's both.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcKRGpMiVTw

[2] - I searched for 30 minutes to find this article, that I read, that stated the current environment of Mathematical Research [3]. Namely, it stated that a lot of research is being published that is NOT peer-reviewed because there isn't enough skilled* Mathematicians to review the work. That it's a 'dirty little secret' in the industry that "known" Mathematicians would get a pass (published w/o review) but many others trying new groundbreaking ideas couldn't get their research peer-reviewed. And with the given University culture to publish NEW research and not review, it's understandable how this environment was created. Namely, Einstein gets the fame but it took numerous people to peer-review his work before it was accepted.

[3] - I know this article exists. It's one of the reasons why I'm becoming a Mathematician. I read it in the past 2-3 years. It was a major site (NewScientist or something that focuses on emerging research). If you can find it, I'd be very grateful. I'm now* using Zotero to save all my findings, so hopefully when I quote something I'll have a source. ;)

*(edited) - original said 'not'. I meant 'now I'm using Zotero'. ;). original said 'skill', I meant 'skilled'

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#57

On question is: why? The examples in differential geometry can be difficult and time-consuming , unlike simple calculus, and are best done with computer, not by hand. A single tensor, as found in general relativity, may have dozens of components...writing them out would be taxing. My question is, what do want to do with this knowledge. There is value in learning complicated, abstract math to signal intellect and thus…

It seems as of late ,especially since 2013, there is huge demand for learning complicated mathematics, coding, and trading algorithms. It's like the AP-math class of high school, but as of 2013 expanded to include almost everyone, not just a dozen students lol. This recent obsession with math and finance is described in more detail.....

Obsession with Math? Where do you live where people have math obsessions? Where I live STEM graduates are a massive minority (We had an HN article on the front page about this very topic just yesterday) Mathematics is some sort of taboo magic in the eyes of 99.99% of humans, not something anybody studies to gain prestige, status or global notoriety. Your average citizen can't even name one mathematician.

People observe, read headlines about high-IQ founders, venture capitalists, and coders making tons of money in Web 2.0 (Uber, Pinterest, Snaphat, Dropbox, etc.); STEM people getting tons of prestige, status, and global notoriety for their finding (Arxiv physics and math papers frequently go viral); and how the economy, especially as of 2008, rewards intellectualism and STEM in terms of higher wages and surging asset prices (like stocks (the S&P 500 has nearly tripled since the 2009 bottom), web 2.0 valuations (Snapchat is worth $15 billion, on its way to $50 billion), and real estate (Palo Also home prices have doubled since 2011)), and, understandably, many people want a piece of the wealth pie. They see that intellect - which includes STEM, finance, and also quantitative finance - is the path to both riches and social status (as embodied by wealthy geniuses like Musk, Thiel, Zuckerberg, Shkreli)....

There is NOTHING genius about narcissistic photo-sharing websites or SnapChat. These are just illusive innovations, a fools-paradise for the masses. Not only that, but the "social status" of these founders you mention has rarely left the confines of the tech-world anyway, if you want social status in our society go to acting school and move to Hollywood. I mean..... this world you mention where STEM students gain so much prestige and math papers go.... viral? Where is this world? What planet are you posting from? Which galaxy is it located in? Is this post of yours real-life or am I dreaming?

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#58
Unless you work on graphics, physics, signal analysis, sound, trading, data science, computer vision, machine learning, etc... it's hard as a software engineer to be exposed to math past the basics, meaning that you can survive without having to go beyond arithmetic.

You might still get some exposure to discrete mathematics once in a while. Statistics is always there to help you, some people avoid it, some others embrace it.

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I actually need is "learning math in a short time", With a few, minimal yet illustrative examples (ala katas), plenty diagrams/illustrations and other mental aids, an no rigour - not a single bit of set-theory! The proofs and rigor can come later... Incidentally, I'm a dev in finance, looking to move into quant dev. I have a math degree (completed 2007) and I'm doing a "CQF" to catch up with the relevant quant k…

I agree with this sentiment. I'm currently pursuing a Bachelor's in Pure Mathematics (or called 'Theoretical Math', eventually I'd like to go far as a PhD in it). I think the ideas of Math could be taught in a condensed way. Maybe it's already done but...education needs to be disrupted in order to do this. My current idea is that Math could be taught as a language and taught as a critical thinking class. A condensed…

That might suffice for solving real-world problems, but not for doing mathematics itself: Intuition will get you a long way, but for working out some of the finer details, you'll have to resort to rigour. Furthermore, without having gone through the rigorous training, you might not even know when your intuition doesn't reach far enough.

Terence Tao[0] put it this way:

»The point of rigour is not to destroy all intuition; instead, it should be used to destroy bad intuition while clarifying and elevating good intuition. It is only with a combination of both rigorous formalism and good intuition that one can tackle complex mathematical problems; one needs the former to correctly deal with the fine details, and the latter to correctly deal with the big picture.«

[0] https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/there’s-more-to...

Re: How to Learn Advanced Mathematics Without Heading to University – Part 3

#60
As I a software developer with no degree (working since 2009 in 3 countries), I can share my experience of attempts to learn advanced math.

In 2010, I was very interested in foundations of mathematics, an extremely abstract math branches:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_mathematics

In particular I spent huge amount of time on:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki (Set theory)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Mathematica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Foundations_of_Arithmetic

http://www.jhtm.nl/tudelft/tw3520/Introduction_to_Mathematic...

What attracted me is that these books doesn't require any specific knowledge of classical math. I.e. they are self-contained.

It was fun and ... the experience to delve into highly abstract view on entire math.

The big problem is that while I read that for more than a year, I had no experience in problem solving and just ignored exercises (thinking that concept is everything). As a result of that, my entire knowledge is completely evaporated and I literally can't solve any of exercises.

After that year, I dropped math till recently.

Now, I have completely different approach. I learning elementary olympiad style math and most importantly solving problems all the time. Currently, I'm into series of books:

https://www.artofproblemsolving.com/store

These books made for math olympiad preparation. While I solving exercises, I feel how solid my knowledge is.

So if you want to learn advanced mathematics, learn elementary olympiad-style math first. It will give you solid background to start learning advanced math (not just knowledge background but most importantly problem solving skills).

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