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The Donbass Paradox

theblacksea.eu

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Re: The Donbass Paradox

#11

Post by douche »

dgudkov wrote: post #7
epicureanideal wrote: post #2

Obvious propaganda piece. Both sides are doing bad things. Intelligent observers can read about the situation widely and decide for themselves what the drivers of the situation are, but this piece doesn't add much. Just for the sake of fairness, I could play devils advocate for either side, but an intelligent reader will do that for themselves, so I'll skip it. Also, I checked their list of stories, and they all seem…

>Both sides are doing bad things. Such statements downplay the root cause and pretend like all parties are equally guilty which is never the case. All sides did bad things in WW2, although it doesn't make all parties equally guilty. It was Hitler who started it. It was Putin who started the war against Ukraine by annexing Crimea. He personally and Russia in general bear the responsibility for the war they planned, pr…

The bigger issue might have been the settlement after the fall of the Soviet Union that kept Russia away from the Black Sea ports. It was almost a historical inevitability that Russia would seek a warm-water port. Sevastopol is the major Russian Black Sea port, and always has been.

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#12

Post by finid »

hourislate wrote: post #5
tristanj wrote: post #3

This was a very engaging, high effort piece of journalism from an org I've never heard of before. Content like this is not cheap to make which gave me the something's not right here vibe, so I tried to find out who paid for this. Their about page says they received a grant from the The German Marshall Fund of the United States, which was founded during the Cold War as a way to promote ties between the US and West Ger…

Why should we be aware of journalism funded by the US or their interests. Where should I get my news from RT or Sputnik?

Because "journalism funded by the US or their interests" is most likely propaganda.

Why do we not get similar long form articles about Saudi Arabia?

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#13

Post by finid »

dgudkov wrote: post #7
epicureanideal wrote: post #2

Obvious propaganda piece. Both sides are doing bad things. Intelligent observers can read about the situation widely and decide for themselves what the drivers of the situation are, but this piece doesn't add much. Just for the sake of fairness, I could play devils advocate for either side, but an intelligent reader will do that for themselves, so I'll skip it. Also, I checked their list of stories, and they all seem…

>Both sides are doing bad things. Such statements downplay the root cause and pretend like all parties are equally guilty which is never the case. All sides did bad things in WW2, although it doesn't make all parties equally guilty. It was Hitler who started it. It was Putin who started the war against Ukraine by annexing Crimea. He personally and Russia in general bear the responsibility for the war they planned, pr…

> It was Putin who started the war against Ukraine by annexing Crimea.

What happened before Russia annexed Crimea? If you can answer that question honestly, you'll get to the root of that conflict. Just be honest with yourself.

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#14

Post by finid »

qaq wrote: post #4
epicureanideal wrote: post #2

Obvious propaganda piece. Both sides are doing bad things. Intelligent observers can read about the situation widely and decide for themselves what the drivers of the situation are, but this piece doesn't add much. Just for the sake of fairness, I could play devils advocate for either side, but an intelligent reader will do that for themselves, so I'll skip it. Also, I checked their list of stories, and they all seem…

Would be interesting to see what do you think Russia is doing right in this conflict?

It's interesting how people take sides on these issues. Many in the US who can count all the wrongs Russia is guilty of in the conflict in Ukraine see nothing wrong with the US position in Syria.

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#15

Post by qaq »

finid wrote: post #14
qaq wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be interesting to see what do you think Russia is doing right in this conflict?

It's interesting how people take sides on these issues. Many in the US who can count all the wrongs Russia is guilty of in the conflict in Ukraine see nothing wrong with the US position in Syria.

This itself could be a subject of a long discussion, but does not seem to be related to the topic at hand.

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#16

Post by niftich »

douche wrote: post #11
dgudkov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Both sides are doing bad things. Such statements downplay the root cause and pretend like all parties are equally guilty which is never the case. All sides did bad things in WW2, although it doesn't make all parties equally guilty. It was Hitler who started it. It was Putin who started the war against Ukraine by annexing Crimea. He personally and Russia in general bear the responsibility for the war they planned, pr…

The bigger issue might have been the settlement after the fall of the Soviet Union that kept Russia away from the Black Sea ports. It was almost a historical inevitability that Russia would seek a warm-water port. Sevastopol is the major Russian Black Sea port, and always has been.

Novorossiysk is an existing Russian warm-water port on the Black Sea, with better links to the Russian heartland. Sevastopol's chief geopolitical advantage over Novorossiysk is force projection, as it sits closer to the Turkish Straits and nearby foreign ports like Odessa, Constanta, and Varna, outside and/or wanting to be outside of Russia's sphere of influence.

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#17

Post by dgudkov »

finid wrote: post #13
dgudkov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Both sides are doing bad things. Such statements downplay the root cause and pretend like all parties are equally guilty which is never the case. All sides did bad things in WW2, although it doesn't make all parties equally guilty. It was Hitler who started it. It was Putin who started the war against Ukraine by annexing Crimea. He personally and Russia in general bear the responsibility for the war they planned, pr…

> It was Putin who started the war against Ukraine by annexing Crimea. What happened before Russia annexed Crimea? If you can answer that question honestly, you'll get to the root of that conflict. Just be honest with yourself.

Whatever happened in Ukraine before the annexation of Crimea has absolutely no any relationship to Russia.

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#18

Post by qaq »

finid wrote: post #13
dgudkov wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Both sides are doing bad things. Such statements downplay the root cause and pretend like all parties are equally guilty which is never the case. All sides did bad things in WW2, although it doesn't make all parties equally guilty. It was Hitler who started it. It was Putin who started the war against Ukraine by annexing Crimea. He personally and Russia in general bear the responsibility for the war they planned, pr…

> It was Putin who started the war against Ukraine by annexing Crimea. What happened before Russia annexed Crimea? If you can answer that question honestly, you'll get to the root of that conflict. Just be honest with yourself.

Putin once again failed in his attempt "to restore" USSR via more "peaceful" means 2nd time in a row was a bit too much for him so he snapped setting Russia on course which will likely bring the collapse of Russia similar to that of the USSR.

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#19

Post by iamjeff »

tristanj wrote: post #3

This was a very engaging, high effort piece of journalism from an org I've never heard of before. Content like this is not cheap to make which gave me the something's not right here vibe, so I tried to find out who paid for this. Their about page says they received a grant from the The German Marshall Fund of the United States, which was founded during the Cold War as a way to promote ties between the US and West Ger…

Let me bring to your attention this [0]; there are very few places online (that I know of) that have the sort of analysis presented on this blog (granted, World Affairs is published by a USA-based company, but bear in mind that the journal is almost 200 years old, its editor is intimately familiar with Eastern Europe and its post-Soviet democratization, is a publication of a pacifist organization, and is a 501(c)3 organization; what I am trying to say is that there is some pedigree here and the quality of the comments is immensely refreshing).

The bulk of this additional material reflects the OP’s submission [1], while [2] highlights the issue from a related angle. As for the organization that published this article (The Black Sea), I think that they do not deserve the pessimism [3]. They have a reputation for publishing high-quality, investigative pieces on topics that several major organizations would not touch.

[0]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Affairs_Institute; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Affairs; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_S._Denton

Tax returns: https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/271...

[1]

(January 2014; about this time, talk of a civil war was already becoming heated)

Standoff in Ukraine: Mafia Regime vs. Mobilized Citizens (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/st...

(February 2014; in this article, the author concedes that war might break out due to the division between East and West Ukraine)

Should There Be One Ukraine? (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/sh...)

(April 2014, predates Russia’s decisive intervention in the Donbass by a couple of days)

Could Russia Occupy Ukraine? (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/co...)

(June 2015; the comments are a gold mine)

On Donbas Autonomy—Again (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/do...

(February 2016; Motyl formalizes his argument against re-integration)

Why Reintegrating the Donbas Is Suicide for Ukraine (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/wh...)

(May 2016; a case for disengaging from the Donbass)

Answering the Critics: Donbas Disengagement (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/an...)

(June 2016; even greater clarity)

A Donbas Strategy Going Forward (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/do...)

[2]

Does Anyone Want Ukraine’s Donbass? (http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/world/2406-does-anyone-want-...

[published by the the New York-based Institute of Modern Russia, IMR, whose president is the son to the former Russian political prisoner and exile Mikhail Khodorkovsky and, by virtue of this association, would be despised by Russian authorities as “unpatriotic” and partisan; IMR’s tax returns are here (https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/611...)]

(2016 report; PDF at the bottom of the summary)

Doing business in Donbas: what are the main obstacles? (http://www.ua.undp.org/content/ukraine/en/home/presscenter/a...)

[3]

(Here, the organization is upfront about its manifesto; tellingly, the organizations was Wikileaks’ sole publishing partner in Europe; also they closely coordinate with the widely respected International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, invite journalists that have been censored by their employees to pitch them, and cover taboo and under-reported stories)

Diving Deep Into Stories (http://theblacksea.eu/index.php?idT=88&idC=88&idRec=1105&rec...)

(They have won numerous awards; certainly that counts for something)

Mission (http://theblacksea.eu/?idT=3&idC=3)

(The organization is funded by Black Sea Trust for Regional Cooperation Initiatives as part of the German Marshall Fund of the United States, GMF. Firstly, there is a difference between the Marshall Plan and GMF; a quick Wikipedia search will suffice. The thing is GMF has funded 100s of projects since its formation, given 1000s of scholarships and grants, and is notable for its involvement in civil society i.e. soft power advocacy. A search of the term “grant” on its homepage http://www.gmfus.org/search/grant>> brings up several of its other initiatives. The Black Sea Trust for Regional Cooperation is a multi-stakeholder initiative and funded TheBlackSea.eu as part of a cross-border project run by Journalismfund.eu to improve journalism quality. Frankly, these guys do not deserve the conspiratorial skepticism)

Launch of the Black Sea Trust for Regional Cooperation (http://trends.gmfus.org/doc/BST%20Launch%20Program.pdf)

Working grant - Ghosts of Sochi (http://journalismfund.eu/ghostsofsochi)

Working grant - Land Grabbing in the EU: How Rabobank is profiting off theft and abuse in Romania (http://journalismfund.eu/landgrabbing)

Working grant - The Gold Trail (http://journalismfund.eu/gold-trail)

Re: The Donbass Paradox

#20

Post by PoroTheMurderer »

Yet another piece of ukrainian 'journalism' trying to ridicule those calling new ukrainian government 'fashists'. In Ukraine there is nothing wrong these days to be a nazi or a 'patriot' how they call themselves. There are plenty of evidence on the web how pro-nazi volunteer battalions came to Donbass to kill those who didn't support new government came to power in the result of coup d'état in February 2014. Neo-nazis in Ukraine are respectable people, they have connections with the government, recently neo-nazi battalion Azov has been integrated into Interior Ministry as special police battalion.

Here is very good investigation of Ukrainian blogger that lives in Europe about nazis in Ukraine. But in Ukrainian media reality they are 'patriots' or 'activists'. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tJphAe9h0w

Ukrainian 'journalists' often drop inconvenient fact that the government after February 2014 is illegal and people of Donbass did not recognize it. And the protests in Donetsk and other cities started only when ultra nationalist Oleg Tyagnibok announced that the very first thing the will do in the Parliament is that they are going to cancel the regional status for Russian language and they actually did it.

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