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In defence of Douglas Crockford

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Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#351
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they insinuated anything beyond that he apparently made others uncomfortable.

The fact that they've disinvited him so publicly and so strangely is itself an insinuation. Quite a strong one, in fact. Imagine your child was expelled from your local school and the reason given was "she made others feel uncomfortable". And that was the end of the discussion.

That's what these diversity groups do, they insert themselves into the process and then act as the new gatekeepers.

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#352
post #348

From nodevember CoC: "Be careful in the words that you choose. Remember that sexist, racist, and other exclusionary jokes can be offensive to those around you. Excessive swearing and offensive jokes are not appropriate for Nodevember." Now... I'm no expert in humor, but aren't nearly all jokes partly "exclusionary" by definition? Maybe not - maybe I'm thinking of just a certain type of 'joke', but almost every sort o…

Consider self-deprecating humor. Or jokes about the perversity of the universe. Jokes about the weather. So I don't think that all jokes are exclusionary (with reference to those around us).

"self-deprecating" was the one I was thinking of right after I hit 'post'.

"weather" jokes can take on a regional-aspect, potentially insulting or offending people in a particular region. And... I don't think I'm being too reaching in that reading, especially if (as we're lead to believe) "the web used to be promiscuous" is somehow 'slut shaming'. People can really find anything to be offended about.

I'm sort of wondering if people have always been 'offended' by many things, and we've only just grown the communication platforms to really expose the victims, or if we've really just found more things to be offended about.

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this all started with the decision that it was okay to ostracize some people for their unrelated political views. It's a little late to say "wait, wait, I just meant those guys!" now that you've given this unstoppable superweapon to every grasping, sociopathic political activist in the industry.

No, it's not. This Manichaean view of intolerance to overt racism, sexism, classism, whatever --- it's bogus, and deserves to be challenged. When spelled out: "opposition at private events to (say) racism requires that event to make common cause with the evil, gathering forces of political repression", it doesn't even sound credible. But that view in fact appeals superficially to message board nerds because it trigge…

"But events like Nodevember, Strange Loop, and Lambdaconf are not academic conferences, they're not a serious part of the citation record for their field, they're put on by private citizens with their own objectives, they're fundamentally about entertainment, and they can make whatever calls they want."

Claiming that a technical conference is "fundamentally about entertainment" is about as convincing a dodge as those "for entertainment purposes only" notices on pirate video sites. Technical conferences are an important way people in a field network, educate themselves, and advance their careers. You're stating that it's okay to blacklist people from advancing their careers because they have a political viewpoint that you don't like. Were you okay with the Hollywood blacklist in the '50s? Because that's what this is.

(And to forestall it: of course they have the legal right to do this, just as the blacklisters in Hollywood did. That doesn't make it morally right.)

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#354
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that was an affirmation of God's saving grace. It describes the ease of putting one's faith in God when suffering under great stress or pain or loss. The 'grace' comes from the fact that God won't judge us for our sins because Jesus took our place in the courtroom. So rather than our being damned, Jesus saved us through His perfect sacrifice. Crybullies are the persecutors, no? They're the ones to pray to God…

Well it's obviously not the originally intended message, but the idea is that "crybullies" get their strength from weakness, in the sense that it gives them a feeling of moral superiority due to victimhood. They then use this as a platform to attack opponents. "Punching down" is the worst sin in the modern liberal conception of morality, so if your peer group consists of those people (and that means, nearly everyone…

I don't agree with your original analogy, but everything you've got here sounds spot on.

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. This Manichaean view of intolerance to overt racism, sexism, classism, whatever --- it's bogus, and deserves to be challenged. When spelled out: "opposition at private events to (say) racism requires that event to make common cause with the evil, gathering forces of political repression", it doesn't even sound credible. But that view in fact appeals superficially to message board nerds because it trigge…

"But events like Nodevember, Strange Loop, and Lambdaconf are not academic conferences, they're not a serious part of the citation record for their field, they're put on by private citizens with their own objectives, they're fundamentally about entertainment, and they can make whatever calls they want." Claiming that a technical conference is "fundamentally about entertainment" is about as convincing a dodge as those…

I am very much a message board nerd; it has never been my intent in invoking that term to set myself apart from other people. You can verify that for yourself with the search bar at the bottom of the page: I'm usually pretty careful to include the words "like us". I wasn't this time, but now you know, and we don't need to litigate that point anymore.

Your latter point is pure relativism. What can't you say that about? People make important business connections by going to bars together, by asking their friends for favors, by selecting cofounders, by playing in the same video game leagues.

The argument about the Hollywood blacklist would be biting if I hadn't foreclosed on it in the comment you responded to without reading very carefully. Perhaps you thought that point was crafty or subtle, but it is in fact banal, lumbering, noisome; you can see it coming on the horizon from the first words typed on a thread like this. You might as well invoke Nazism.

My argument is simple, and you'll need to address it head on. The people suggesting that excluding any speaker ever is some kind of Pandora's Box that opens every event up to trolling and zealotry are making two untenable arguments:

* That there is a set of principles about exclusion OR inclusion that is somehow immune to gaming and manipulation by bad faith participants. No, any set of principles you conjure will be gamed if you don't use judgement.

* That there even exists some simple set of rules we can all follow, something that fits in 80 columns to match our source code style guide, that will resolve all these problems. No, these problems are complicated.

You want this problem to be so simple that you can beat people over the head with the obvious right answer. It's not simple. It's complicated, multi-segmented, floppy, unwieldy. You swing it through the air at people's heads, but it curls up on itself as you do, and the only thing that hits your opponents argument is a bit more air.

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#356
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except if you make it to "fame/success status". Then you can use the minority card all the time in your favour.

More likely they are invoking their famous card. The minority card had no advantages. Chris Rock pointed out that in being a black actor he is not allowed to make a bad/questionable movie. He makes one bad film and and all of black Hollywood is out of work for a year.

>More likely they are invoking their famous card. The minority card had no advantages.

I think if you're famous/succesful, the minority/victim card can be played to your advantage too.

If you're a poor/unknown minority, nobody gives a fuck.

The same way few care or write indignant posts for sex trafficking victims or exploited immigrant people, but if some minority member at some $1000/person conference hears something they that hurts their feelings, it warrants a small media/social-media storm.

It's the upper middle class minority version of "white people's problems".

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#357
post #340
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the hypothetical argument would be that "whore", in our current time period, is not only primarily used as an insult, but it's one that seems to be disproportionately directed against women. Not just today, but in our very recent history (on a sidenote, I wonder how easy the gender association of "whore" could be quantified by looking at Google's n-gram dataset). Sure, you could argue that "whore" is used aga…

He didn't say 'whore', though, that's the point. This person inferred 'whore' from 'promiscuous'.

He didn't say 'whore', though, that's the point

Sorry to be snippy, but no, that's not the point. That's your point, and one possible counter argument. The worry is that while true, it's weak and specific, and leaves the way open to further attacks. By concentrating on the counterfactual I'm trying to address a broader issue.

This person inferred 'whore' from 'promiscuous'.

Who is "this person"? I don't think anyone inferred this -- it's a counterfactual. In particular, Perch did not use the term 'whore': https://medium.com/@nodebotanist/why-i-won-t-be-speaking-at-...

I think it's also worth noting that the word 'promiscuous' already has a history in computers.

Both I and 'danso' know the meaning of 'promiscuous' with regard to packet snooping. We didn't mention it here because it's amply discussed elsewhere, and because it's not relevant to the discussion we are having. The real question, as with "daemon processes" and "master and slave relationships" is whether this usage is appropriate today, not whether the usage has precedent.

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But events like Nodevember, Strange Loop, and Lambdaconf are not academic conferences, they're not a serious part of the citation record for their field, they're put on by private citizens with their own objectives, they're fundamentally about entertainment, and they can make whatever calls they want." Claiming that a technical conference is "fundamentally about entertainment" is about as convincing a dodge as those…

I am very much a message board nerd; it has never been my intent in invoking that term to set myself apart from other people. You can verify that for yourself with the search bar at the bottom of the page: I'm usually pretty careful to include the words "like us". I wasn't this time, but now you know, and we don't need to litigate that point anymore. Your latter point is pure relativism. What can't you say that about…

If someone is marching around in jackboots and a swastika armband talking about how we need to invade Poland, then it is indeed appropriate to invoke Nazism. And if someone is advocating that people should be blackballed in an industry purely because of their unpopular but also completely unrelated political views, then it is indeed appropriate to invoke the Hollywood blacklist.

Anyway, we're getting way off my original point, which was that this weapon of yours doesn't care who it's pointed at. Once you've unleashed the blacklisting, it'll get used against people you don't want it to. As has happened here.

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#359
post #312
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? The talk organizers were faced with a dilemma: either keep Crawford and lose a bunch of other speakers or lose Crawford but keep others I do think clarification is needed, but I could see "being a jerk " as a legit reason to not want to associate with someone. People do the same with people like Torvalds Being unliked is also a reason that people won't want to associate with you.

So tolerance and diversity are apparently only good things if they're applied to the Right People with the Right Opinions.

Tolerance and Diversity when it tips the scale toward their agenda, Shaming, Boycotts, Twitter smear campaigns, and threats to employers when it doesn't.

Re: In defence of Douglas Crockford

#360
Is it possible that there have been harassment allegations against Crockford that have not come to light? I think it is completely acceptable for people who have been harassed by prominent individuals to not want to come forward publicly with their stories for a host of obvious reasons.
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