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Crockford

paulstraw.svbtle.com

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Re: Crockford

#51

Post by dogma1138 »

istjohn wrote: post #43
BoringCode wrote: post #17

There's the old idea of "you judge your actions by your intentions and others intentions by their actions." I think culturally we've entered into this weird area where we're not even judging people so much by their actions but rather by how their actions make some people feel. There is nothing wrong with being mindful of how your statements and actions are perceived. Communication is always a two-way street where wha…

Absolutely. It's great that societal norms of what is acceptable in speech are progressing to be considerate of more and more out-groups. But we need to be mindful that news of these new norms do not reach everyone simultaneously, and we should not tar and feather people for not independently coming upon the insight that a certain element of speech can be hurtful. While we should all seek to understand and empathize…

These aren't norms and they aren't new the subject has changed but this is exactly the level of thought policing that true liberals used to fight and even die for.

This is no different than the puritans or any other group that wish to enforce their own opinions at the expense of everyone else.

Re: Crockford

#52

Post by artursapek »

joaoqalves wrote: post #33

This "X shaming" or "X gender inappropriate joke" is really getting out of hand. You can't say anything anymore. You may hurt someone's feelings, bla bla bla. I'm sick of this. I'm sick of this political correctness that is intoxicating our society. You cannot say anymore: "hey, grow a pair!" because this is sexist? Come on... this is insane! One thing is to respect everybody and another one is to apply censorship to…

> Even though people didn't meant to offend, harass or shame other people.

That's the thing - people who shame others are not looking at intent behind actions; they're getting offended by shallow interpretations (a sign of insecurity). Any reasonable person looking at Crockford making his "weak" joke would not think his intention was to harass physically weak people.

This kind of shit is also why you see people like /r/the_donald aggressively provoking and fighting back against these so-called "SJW's" - the pendulum has swung way too far the opposite way.

Re: Crockford

#53

Post by easychris »

Udo wrote: post #8

One of my consulting projects includes doing programming for a relatively big millenials-dominated site. Users on that site know exactly what cards to play in what order to get people on staff and/or affiliates fired - it's Crybullying all the way. It doesn't even matter if the claims made are true or not, just the proclamation of being hurt or oppressed is sufficient. The site owners ultimately making these decision…

Agree. I ran a dating site for 7 years and had to deal with such inquiries on a daily basis ("Buhuu, that guy/girl sad mean things to me, close his/her account").

Most often it turned out the complaining person was the problem.

Worst cases were third parties who requested such actions on behalf of the "victim". They were loud, asked other members to complain too and even showed up in our offices to demand account closings - without any proof or valid reasoning.

I never understood how people handle their real lives without being able to argue or verbally discuss such issues. Even if these include occasional insults. IMHO these are just words - you don't need to cry for higher authorities (site admins, conference organizers or law authorities) all the time.

Re: Crockford

#54

Post by rhapsodic »

istjohn wrote: post #48
infodroid wrote: post #37

How come this story and the previous one have been penalized on HN despite the high number of upvotes? This story was published to HN only an hour ago but has gathered over 115 points, yet it has been relegated to page 2. The previous story [1] was published 14 hours ago and has over 540 points, yet is now to be found on page 4. If the algorithm was operating as usual then both stories would still be in the top half…

Would getting flagged bump it down? It's a shame people don't think this is a worthwhile conversation to be having.

I don't think "worthwhile" had anything to do with their motivation for flagging it. They're probably afraid that the conversation might spark a backlash against Nodevember and their corporate sponsors.

Re: Crockford

#55

Post by williamgb »

tomohawk wrote: post #3

It seems pretty clear that this is more about a clique that is attacking Mr Crockford in order to obtain more power for themselves. They can now say - "Hey - you have to listen to us! We Matter! Look at what we forced the Nodevember people to do. We're a moral authority!". To go from complaining about a lack of diversity, to basically saying 'you screwed up and now need to prove your love to us by uninviting this JS…

Sensitive subjects seem to be effective conduits by which manipulative people can control others.

What drives me to despair is that all too frequently it takes only a cursory glance at the Twitter feed of the person making the loudest complaints regarding inclusivity and diversity to find comments which compromise these values.

The individual in this instance goes by @nexxylove on Twitter, and has recently retweeted such statements as: "We love our freedom rhetoric in this country, but most white don't actually believe in true freedom. Removing choice is their default"[0] and "…I'm tired of the intellectual dishonesty of cis men. Disgusting."[1].

Thankfully I see significant effort by those around me to tackle these problems discreetly and in sobriety. Inclusivity isn't an extreme position, and discourse need not be monopolised by those who shout the loudest.

[0] https://twitter.com/polotek/status/772113530761859072 [1] https://twitter.com/nexxylove/status/771182690238287872

Re: Crockford

#56

Post by Udo »

easychris wrote: post #53
Udo wrote: post #8

One of my consulting projects includes doing programming for a relatively big millenials-dominated site. Users on that site know exactly what cards to play in what order to get people on staff and/or affiliates fired - it's Crybullying all the way. It doesn't even matter if the claims made are true or not, just the proclamation of being hurt or oppressed is sufficient. The site owners ultimately making these decision…

Agree. I ran a dating site for 7 years and had to deal with such inquiries on a daily basis ("Buhuu, that guy/girl sad mean things to me, close his/her account"). Most often it turned out the complaining person was the problem. Worst cases were third parties who requested such actions on behalf of the "victim". They were loud, asked other members to complain too and even showed up in our offices to demand account clo…

> I never understood how people handle their real lives without being able to argue or verbally discuss such issues

My guess is they handle it very well, because they're just using a strategy that works out perfectly for them. This only has to be learned or reinforced once, and it becomes a problem solving strategy for life because it's such an easy exploit to use with our social protocols. It can be used to solve pretty much every issue where they can win by exerting pressure.

Whoever happens to get in their way also often takes permanent damage by being labeled something bad that sticks and this hampers that person's ability to not only resolve the issue at hand but prevents them from being heard in the future as well. Either way, you either acquiesce or you get bulldozed.

Re: Crockford

#57

Post by asdffderty »

jgalt212 wrote: post #38
tomohawk wrote: post #3

It seems pretty clear that this is more about a clique that is attacking Mr Crockford in order to obtain more power for themselves. They can now say - "Hey - you have to listen to us! We Matter! Look at what we forced the Nodevember people to do. We're a moral authority!". To go from complaining about a lack of diversity, to basically saying 'you screwed up and now need to prove your love to us by uninviting this JS…

Who are these bullies?

SJWs

Re: Crockford

#58

Post by stephenr »

artursapek wrote: post #52
joaoqalves wrote: post #33

This "X shaming" or "X gender inappropriate joke" is really getting out of hand. You can't say anything anymore. You may hurt someone's feelings, bla bla bla. I'm sick of this. I'm sick of this political correctness that is intoxicating our society. You cannot say anymore: "hey, grow a pair!" because this is sexist? Come on... this is insane! One thing is to respect everybody and another one is to apply censorship to…

> Even though people didn't meant to offend, harass or shame other people. That's the thing - people who shame others are not looking at intent behind actions; they're getting offended by shallow interpretations (a sign of insecurity). Any reasonable person looking at Crockford making his "weak" joke would not think his intention was to harass physically weak people. This kind of shit is also why you see people like…

> This kind of shit is also why you see people like /r/the_donald

I'm not sure if you just referred to a subreddit as a person, or referred to a ridiculously famous man by the path to the subreddit about him?

Either way, wtf.

Re: Crockford

#59

Post by mrcsparker »

rhapsodic wrote: post #42
istjohn wrote: post #29

It disappoints me to see how many folks on Hacker News have responded to this incident by condemning the entire concept of standards of conduct and the idea that the developer community should take the goal of inclusivity and sensitivity seriously. There is no question that our community too often can feel hostile to those who aren't white hetero men, and that is a real problem. On the other hand, there is no questio…

> But creating a community that is comfortable for everyone is an inherently valuable goal. Well, I can never be comfortable in a community where I might have my reputation and/or career destroyed over a reference to testicles that some might deem inappropriate. The people doing this are vicious and hateful, and they need to be given a taste of their own medicine.

Maybe the idea of communities in tech should just go away. People who share similar ideas on tech should just get together to share those ideas without having to setup a bunch of arbitrary rules and gatekeepers.

Some brilliant people might also have offensive ideas. Why not have a system that allows that brilliance to shine through?

The larger problem here is that these are not communities of hobbyists. Saying something silly or having someone misinterpret what you are saying within the community could cost you your living. Crockford will be okay because he is already well established, but what if he wasn't as well established?

Re: Crockford

#60

Post by stephenr »

closed wrote: post #40

It seems like those calling for removing speakers are often trying to set identity contingencies. That is, a rule like, "if you are Douglas Crockford, then you can't speak at a conference". However, like identity contingencies against people based on gender, race, etc.. this kind of rule is disappointing because it assumes there is something inherently limited or bad about being Douglas Crockford. What seems better t…

That concept won't work for these people. Making rules like "don't be sexist" means that to prevent someone coming, you have to show that the person was in fact being sexist.

The homepage for Nodevember has a big "code of conduct" section. No idea if it's new or not, but one bit is:

> Do not insult or put down other attendees.

Insult is taken, not given. You can't decide what insults me, the same as I can't decide what insults you. By that token, anyone can claim that anything anyone says is insulting to them.

I find plenty of common nodejs community 'norms' to be insulting to my eyes to read, never mind to my brain having to deal with the mental shenanigans required to try to make sense of the decisions made.

Does that mean I have the ability to say "NPM's dependency management is so poor quality it's insulting" and have any talk about NPM banned?

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