Earlier quoted context omitted.
"it seriously fucked up for not vetting Mr. Crockford before inviting him" What exactly does Mr. Crockford need to be "vetted" for, with whom, and how exactly did those people gain the authority to decide who gets to speak and who doesn't?
Whose authority? The same authority that allows them to create Nodevember: their own. I've never run a conference so I'm only speculating here: when people decide to organize a conference, they have an idea of what ideas and environment and discussion they want to promote, whether it's Nodevember or the American Neo-Nazi Party. I don't know what Nodevember's standards are but they clearly don't allow for Crockford, a…
Crockford
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Re: Crockford
#32And I know how unpopular this will be, but all I can do is try to be genuine and respond honestly.
The thing is...as a white man (from the south, no less), I know that I can't make some references or jokes because I benefit from traditions and norms that stem from historical wrongs or unjust power relationships.
At one point in my life my personal safety was completely at the whim of someone else. It changed the way that I look at relationships. I think that people can judge you best for who you are when no one can force you to do something different. You are who you are when no one can stop you.
What does that have to do with Mr. Crockford having some disagreeable language in a presentation?
It's because --- when he doesn't have to --- he chooses to use language that unnecessarily references sexuality and gender in ways that reinforce the negative things that some people have experienced.
I would be lying to you and to myself if I said that I always completely understand or identify with some of the things that other people have gone through. Having gone through something that changed the way I look at the world and the ways in which people interact, I try to give them the space.
There is a reason why "professional" language has changed over the last 50 years. It's so that people can meet and carry out a task without bringing emotion and baggage to a situation where it can be counterproductive.
I don't know how you could look at the world as it is today and think that things like this are even remotely a large problem. Even ESR's talk about this stuff being a threat to STEM? I know people, have met them, went to church with them as a child, that are a threat to STEM. Some of them actively lobby state organizations, civil and purely political, to "toughen" their stances on creationism and "family values". It's horrifying. They actively work to have textbooks changed.
If you think that people who just want to be comfortable in a setting around their peers at a conference are somehow worse, I would like to assure you that they are not.
Do they say dumb things on Twitter? Of course they do. Twitter was designed to strip the intelligence from communications. And of course, none of you have ever said anything stupid on a public forum?
Another thing. Lest you think me some kind of squishy liberal SJW fag...or whatever you are calling people these days. I have seen, committed, and been party to more violence than most people my age. I'm not a soldier. I'm also not a criminal. I've tried very hard over the years to build a good productive life for myself. It wasn't easy. It isn't easy. You don't know me and I don't know you. I'm often reminded of this interview I saw with a French Savate fighter. He was in his late 50's and looked like any other geezer his age during the interview. Except that every other geezer in France didn't finish a fight with two broken arms.
You never know who you are insulting. People all over the world are carrying tremendous burdens of memory and emotion and are trying to live and move on. That extra little bit of angry that you send their way. It adds up. Everyone wants to feel persecuted, you guys are right about that. You may want to look at your own thoughts and try to see if there is some persecution complex going on there.
Just be nice. Butt out of things that don't concern you. Write more code, but mainly just be nice.
Re: Crockford
#33Re: Crockford
#34Re: Crockford
#35Crockford did nothing wrong. Fuck Nodevember. If you have huevos or egos or whatever, don't support that conference. He is one of those guys that will email you back if you have a technical question. I know because he already did twice to me. Who can say that about someone so influential?
It's another conference scam anyway. They're charging $350 for tickets with unconfirmed speakers and they have an open call for speakers. Considering the main value is out of the speakers selling before having much of anything confirmed or even finished just screams like yet another conference trying to cash in (they're even taking sponsors, too). I don't mind conferences where you have to pay mind you but I've only…
Re: Crockford
#36Re: Crockford
#37This story was published to HN only an hour ago but has gathered over 115 points, yet it has been relegated to page 2.
The previous story [1] was published 14 hours ago and has over 540 points, yet is now to be found on page 4.
If the algorithm was operating as usual then both stories would still be in the top half of the front page.
Re: Crockford
#38It seems pretty clear that this is more about a clique that is attacking Mr Crockford in order to obtain more power for themselves. They can now say - "Hey - you have to listen to us! We Matter! Look at what we forced the Nodevember people to do. We're a moral authority!". To go from complaining about a lack of diversity, to basically saying 'you screwed up and now need to prove your love to us by uninviting this JS…
Re: Crockford
#39Re: Crockford
#40What seems better to me would be asking for an explicit behavioral contingency on being a conference speaker. For example, "if you are going to make sexist remarks, then you cannot speak at the conference".
This makes clear that if you think Douglas Crockford is not fundamentally broken as a human, but could learn and become better at following the contingencies set by the conference, then he is fine to speak. It also opens room to work with Crockford to create a plan for him to speak at the conference, such as going over his speech beforehand, or sitting down with him afterward to discuss ways in which he may have violated the conference's standards.
He can't stop being Douglas Crockford, but I don't think that means he can't stop producing behaviors conference organizers find offensive or harmful (if he wants to).
P.s. check out the book Whistling Vivaldi for an interesting introduction to some potentially harmful (or beneficial) effects of identity contingencies.