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The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

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Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#71
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (or at least all law that carries the death penalty) So, nearly no law - and in fact no law in countries without the death penalty?

Every country with a police force has an unwritten law imposing the death penalty for law-breaking. In order to arrest someone and send him to a Norwegian country-club prison, the threat or use of force must occur. Force is, ultimately, lethal violence.

> Every country with a police force has an unwritten law imposing the death penalty for law-breaking.

"for law-breaking" is an over-generalization, but okay, not "no law." Merely "no law on the books."

> In order to arrest someone and send him to a Norwegian country-club prison, the threat or use of force must occur.

Lots of punitive measures beyond arresting someone. Wage garnishment, for example. Given how many employers refuse to employ felons out of hand, it's likely no force against your employer was necessary to get them on board with garnishing your wages either. Merely having the government label you a criminal can be a grievous overreach, in my book, for breaking many minor laws.

Cops rarely want the hassle and danger involved in arresting people.

> Force is, ultimately, lethal violence.

I think you're overgeneralizing to the point of making these terms meaningless. And that's coming from someone who considers tasers to be "lethal violence".

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>drinking too much water and dying Citation needed.

Definition: Hyponatremia is a condition that occurs when the level of sodium in your blood is abnormally low. Sodium is an electrolyte, and it helps regulate the amount of water that's in and around your cells. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hyponatremia/b... Risk factors: Certain drugs. Medications that increase your risk of hyponatremia include thiazide diuretics as well as some antidepressants and p…

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Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#73
post #5

Just like there are regularly reported "MDMA deaths" in the mainstream media despite MDMA never having been reasonably blamed for any death (beyond crazy "took 50x recommended dosage" or disingenuous "took something they thought was MDMA but was actually ketamine" cases).

> despite MDMA never having been reasonably blamed for any death You're just plain wrong here. Ecstasy is a dangerous drug that can cause overheating, dehydration, and other very serious conditions that can and do result in death. Further, the drug's effects discourage the behaviors, like eating and drinking water in reasonable quantities, that are essential to preventing those conditions. With their sense of hunger…

Ecstasy is really not a very dangerous drug.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/08/is-ecs...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4537874...

David Nutt has spoken widely and very entertainingly about drugs and their relative harms. This is an excellent lecture he has done a number of places on politics and drug policy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkcO_wJ9yKo&spfreload=10

Nutt also founded the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs:

http://www.drugscience.org.uk

This is a very good source for accurate information about drug risks and harm reduction.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#74

We need to decrease focus on "the U.S. government" in such history and reporting. " People poisoned alcohol during prohibition." Once you get to that point, you realize that the lessons of history apply all around you. Basically, people are still people. And what happened before, is bound -- history demonstrates, very likely to -- happen again. You learn to view everything with a critical eye. I guess I can't avoid t…

"Government" is the term we use to describe a type of structure that "people" form. This type of structure usually ends up doing these sort of things.

"History will repeat itself" isn't very useful unless the aim is to soothe oneself into giving up hope.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#75
post #5

Just like there are regularly reported "MDMA deaths" in the mainstream media despite MDMA never having been reasonably blamed for any death (beyond crazy "took 50x recommended dosage" or disingenuous "took something they thought was MDMA but was actually ketamine" cases).

> despite MDMA never having been reasonably blamed for any death You're just plain wrong here. Ecstasy is a dangerous drug that can cause overheating, dehydration, and other very serious conditions that can and do result in death. Further, the drug's effects discourage the behaviors, like eating and drinking water in reasonable quantities, that are essential to preventing those conditions. With their sense of hunger…

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Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, alcohol taxes are too low. There are huge social costs of alcohol use and alcoholism, ranging from direct health risks, to drunk driving and assault. The taxes on alcohol (unlike the taxes on cigarettes) do not even come close to matching the social costs of alcohol. For references, look at Mark Kleiman's work. So no, the taxes are not blood money, though I suspect adding methyl alcohol to industrial al…

> ...alcohol taxes are too low Citation needed - seriously. Mark Kleinman the "War on Alcohol guy"?!? Arguments about taxation could go on for a very long time. Is the tax having the effect we wanted. Should taxes be used for social engineering? Is the govt even using the money to cure the social ills they promised theyd solve - apparently not for cigarettes because smokings coming back in a big way. > the taxes are…

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Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#77
post #42

OTOH, governments sure love alcohol. Consumption and VAT tax adds to 50% on hard alcohol. There's a lot of profit to be made. Gov makes many times more than the actual producer. Denaturation is just a way of pleasing industrial users, while keeping the exorbiant profits from drinkers. If they could, they would tax the industrial users too. It's a blood money because of artificially increased incetives for unsafe prod…

The thing is, alcohol taxes are too low. There are huge social costs of alcohol use and alcoholism, ranging from direct health risks, to drunk driving and assault. The taxes on alcohol (unlike the taxes on cigarettes) do not even come close to matching the social costs of alcohol. For references, look at Mark Kleiman's work. So no, the taxes are not blood money, though I suspect adding methyl alcohol to industrial al…

The higher you push alcohol taxes, the more people turn to black markets, the more people get injured by improper distillation.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#78
post #37
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really true, MDMA in high doses does have dangerous acute effects which can be deadly (hyponatremia, hyperthermia). See f.e. Martha Fernback, Anna Wood. I mean even if you die from water poisoning or heart attack (at the age of 15), that would not happen if you don't ingest MDMA beforehand.

OK, if you're a 45kg woman and you take six pills in an evening and then drink 10 liters of water, you'll die. If you get crushed in a crowd surge, you might die. Blaming those on MDMA specifically is usually fatuous though, even if it was a precursor. It's like saying that eating McDonalds is implicated in street racing deaths because some people who die in street races do so with McDonalds wrappers in the car.

We can very well blame those deaths on MDMA, because the causality is clear.

If you take six pills of anything that exists in pill form and you die, then assuming one pill is something of a standard dose, that means that chemical has a low therapeutic index and is therefore dangerous.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#79
What's shocking to me is the extent to which some people think this is OK. This is why we will never run out of prison camp guards and executioners. They're on a continuum with the sort of people who will formulate a product to conduct mass murder. It's a sanitary mass killing. They're addicts, after all. I've got qualified immunity as a DEA agent if I'm formulating opioid painkillers with a drug that will give you liver failure so you have plenty of time for a slow painful death, denied a transplant due to "drug abuse." It takes a special kind of ghoul.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#80
post #15
post #6

Who would poison our liquor without government?

Criminal gangs selling bootleg liquor will sometimes sell contaminated product.

There's no such thing as a criminal gang selling bootleg liquor without a government prohibition.
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