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The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

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Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#41

Post by taneq »

wildmusings wrote: post #18
taneq wrote: post #5

Just like there are regularly reported "MDMA deaths" in the mainstream media despite MDMA never having been reasonably blamed for any death (beyond crazy "took 50x recommended dosage" or disingenuous "took something they thought was MDMA but was actually ketamine" cases).

> despite MDMA never having been reasonably blamed for any death You're just plain wrong here. Ecstasy is a dangerous drug that can cause overheating, dehydration, and other very serious conditions that can and do result in death. Further, the drug's effects discourage the behaviors, like eating and drinking water in reasonable quantities, that are essential to preventing those conditions. With their sense of hunger…

Unless you go nutso and drink stupid amounts of water, you' re not in any danger. The danger is that everyone tells you "oh you could get dehydrated, drink as much water as you can" and some people follow this advice literally when pinging. Drink 500mL-1L per hour and you'll be fine. In my own experience you run hot but your thermoregulation still works so you'll naturally seek cooler spaces when you start overheating - this is why clubs/raves have "chillout zones".

I can't speak to long term effects, I only took it a few times at intervals of a few months. In my experience, MDMA is the opposite of addictive - if you've had a good night on it, taking more will do nothing for you for a few weeks.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#42

Post by megous »

OTOH, governments sure love alcohol. Consumption and VAT tax adds to 50% on hard alcohol. There's a lot of profit to be made. Gov makes many times more than the actual producer.

Denaturation is just a way of pleasing industrial users, while keeping the exorbiant profits from drinkers. If they could, they would tax the industrial users too.

It's a blood money because of artificially increased incetives for unsafe production of alcohol. Which killed and blinded people in the past. Even those who thought were buying the "good" taxed alcohol because of supply chain contamination.

Cynical view perhaps. Though when thinking about effective measures the government decision making is always contaminated by losing their precisous billions of $.

(non-US)

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#45

Post by meddlepal »

astrodust wrote: post #4

The alcohol used as torpedo propellant was that was often used by sailors to make "torpedo juice" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_juice ) so that ended up being tainted as well to render it undrinkable. That was also a severely misguided effort.

I'm always kind of amused by the effort people will put into getting drunk throughout history.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#46

Post by meddlepal »

mamon wrote: post #11
greenyoda wrote: post #2

Denatured alcohol (e.g., ethanol with added methanol to render it undrinkable) is still used today for industrial purposes since it's much cheaper than pure ethanol, which is heavily taxed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol

And yet some people (mostly homeless and addicts) find a way to drink it anyway, with such strange methods like filtering through bread crusts. I totally don't understand why article tries to blame government for all those deaths when it was clearly mob trying to make money.

Does the bread filtering thing actually work? I just don't see how that could possibly work...

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#47

Post by hyperpape »

mamon wrote: post #11
greenyoda wrote: post #2

Denatured alcohol (e.g., ethanol with added methanol to render it undrinkable) is still used today for industrial purposes since it's much cheaper than pure ethanol, which is heavily taxed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol

And yet some people (mostly homeless and addicts) find a way to drink it anyway, with such strange methods like filtering through bread crusts. I totally don't understand why article tries to blame government for all those deaths when it was clearly mob trying to make money.

If you take an action and know that there is a direct consequence that will kill people who have not done anything that could justify death (i.e. almost anything short of murder), you can't ignore that consequence. The only way to justify it is to say that for some reason, not acting would be unacceptable. And that is a high bar to clear, one that is obviously not met by the prohibition policy.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#48

Post by hyperpape »

megous wrote: post #42

OTOH, governments sure love alcohol. Consumption and VAT tax adds to 50% on hard alcohol. There's a lot of profit to be made. Gov makes many times more than the actual producer. Denaturation is just a way of pleasing industrial users, while keeping the exorbiant profits from drinkers. If they could, they would tax the industrial users too. It's a blood money because of artificially increased incetives for unsafe prod…

The thing is, alcohol taxes are too low. There are huge social costs of alcohol use and alcoholism, ranging from direct health risks, to drunk driving and assault. The taxes on alcohol (unlike the taxes on cigarettes) do not even come close to matching the social costs of alcohol. For references, look at Mark Kleiman's work.

So no, the taxes are not blood money, though I suspect adding methyl alcohol to industrial alcohol is indefensible.

Fwiw: I do still drink, typically 1-2 drinks, no more than 1-2 days a week, so I'm not a particularly heavy drinker (i.e. this would cost me money, but not as much as it would cost some folks). I also believed this when I drank more than I do now.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#49

Post by DominikR »

nxc18 wrote: post #7

Although this had unfortunate consequences, and would be unthinkable in today's enlightened world, I'm not sure the line of reasoning here was unreasonable. The idea that manufacturers would be allowed to produce vast quantities of a partially illegal substance, without putting in efforts to prevent illegal use, seems unreasonable. Imagine the outcry if it turned out Phizer was manufacturing all the heroin. (They and…

> Although this had unfortunate consequences, and would be unthinkable in today's enlightened world, I'm not sure the line of reasoning here was unreasonable.

It is only reasonable for people who believe in social engineering of society to achieve some kind of betterment, even if that includes use of force or actually killing thousands of citizens by poisoning them.

Let me be clear on this, these people that died as a result did nothing other than buying products in a free exchange. No alcohol or drug dealer put a gun to their head and forced them to buy and consume their products.

This is not to say that I believe drugs are a good thing, it's just not my business to tell anyone what he or she should desire or not.

There are many types of Collectivist ideologies out there that believe in engineering societal improvement and they all have one thing in common: They are authoritarian and disregard the free will of individuals. Some might poison products to kill off the undesired or use state force to prohibit certain products, some might send rebellious citizens that think "wrong" to re-education camps (Soviet Gulags) and some might even send them to extermination camps. (National Socialist from Germany)

I reject all of that, I do not care in the slightest about what these Collectivists believe would be an enlightened society and how to bring that about. I'm an individual with personal interests and everyone should stay out of my business as long as I do not harm others.

If you can convince me and others to freely restrict ourselves in a way that could improve society then I'm fine with that.

Re: The US government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition (2010)

#50

Post by ddeck »

wildmusings wrote: post #22
jeremyjh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>drinking too much water and dying Citation needed.

Definition: Hyponatremia is a condition that occurs when the level of sodium in your blood is abnormally low. Sodium is an electrolyte, and it helps regulate the amount of water that's in and around your cells. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hyponatremia/b... Risk factors: Certain drugs. Medications that increase your risk of hyponatremia include thiazide diuretics as well as some antidepressants and p…

>Risk factors: Certain drugs...

Additional risk factor: Poorly thought out radio contests:

"A 28-year-old woman found dead hours after taking part in a radio station's water-drinking contest died of water intoxication, the coroner's office said Saturday" [1]

[1] http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jan/14/local/me-water14

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