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Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

theguardian.com

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Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#41

Post by p4bl0 »

mirimir wrote: post #35
p4bl0 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GNU Taler is a technology, not a company, so it doesn't "know" things in the sense that would be bothersome here. From GNU Taler's website: “When you pay with Taler, your identity does not have to be revealed to the merchant. The bank, government and exchange will also never learn how you spent your electronic money. However, you can prove that you paid in court if necessary.”

OK, the exchange will know your identity. That's not anonymous. Edit: Anonymity is a strong claim. Even Tor daemon warns "This is experimental software. Do not rely on it for strong anonymity."

There are ways to prove things without disclosing them using crypto.

A very simple example is using hashing. Let's say two friends A and B want to play head-or-tail in a chat discussion. If A first tells "head" or "tail" and then do the draw and win, B won't trust that A did not cheat. But if B do the draw, then A won't trust them. What you need is a way for either A or B to choose between "head" or "tail" and them commit to that choice and be able to prove it to the other after the other made the draw. This is possible without any trusted third-party:

— A choose for example "tail", they can hash that choice along with a "password" (generally called salt). For example they hash "tailLO7f-(86F" with md5, the result is "a079dcaae211e60756e5519058dcfc97".

— A sends that hash to B. B cannot know from the hash if A chose "head" or "tail", because the hash computation is way too difficult to inverse and they do not know the password to add after "head" or "tail".

— B draws a coin (or even chose the result, it doesn't really matter) and tells the result to A.

— Then A can prove to B that they chose "tail", by telling B the password "LO7f-(86F" so B can add that to "tail" and verify A's claim by computing the hash themselves.

Now this is a very simple example of how it is possible to prove things without disclosing information. It is of course much more complicated in the settings of financial transactions with multiple parties, but it shows that it is possible if necessary prove previously undisclosed claims.

Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#42

Post by pessimizer »

witty_username wrote: post #20
blfr wrote: post #14

Is this really the reason people block ads? I don't actually mind tracking as part of a useful service (like Google Maps). I block ads because they're 1) annoying 2) funding mass media. Depriving Bezos' WaPo or Slim's NYT of revenue is definitely a feature. If billionaires want to push propaganda, the least they can do is foot the bill. Tracking is a distant third. If an outlet I cared about ran ads, I'd white-list t…

If you don't want to fund mass media, why are you reading it? Reading it implies it has some value.

I read all kinds of things that I wouldn't want to fund. I read things that I would pay to get unpublished. I've spent hours reading Stormfront and Breitbart. I've even read Tom Friedman, god help me.

You don't listen to anybody you wouldn't pay? I listen to people I would pay to have behind bars.

Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#43

Post by mirimir »

p4bl0 wrote: post #41
mirimir wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, the exchange will know your identity. That's not anonymous. Edit: Anonymity is a strong claim. Even Tor daemon warns "This is experimental software. Do not rely on it for strong anonymity."

There are ways to prove things without disclosing them using crypto. A very simple example is using hashing. Let's say two friends A and B want to play head-or-tail in a chat discussion. If A first tells "head" or "tail" and then do the draw and win, B won't trust that A did not cheat. But if B do the draw, then A won't trust them. What you need is a way for either A or B to choose between "head" or "tail" and them c…

Yes, I know that stuff. What I don't know is how Taler exchanges would handle customer information. The reliance on bank transfers and card payments is troubling. I've read https://taler.net/ with some care, and I'm still not clear.

At https://taler.net/governments I see:

> Taler is an electronic payment system that was built with the goal of supporting taxation. With Taler, the receiver of any form of payment is known, and the payment information comes attached with some details about what the payment was made for (but not the identity of the customer). Thus, governments can use this data to tax buisnesses and individuals based on their income, making tax evasion and black markets less viable.

However, at https://taler.net/citizens I see nothing about anonymizing deposits via bank transfer from payments. I can buy Bitcoin in the same way. But before I spend them, I can anonymize by mixing via Tor. Without that step, there is no substantive anonymity.

Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#44

Post by covekeyboard »

rolfvandekrol wrote: post #10

I find it interesting that this article is published on a platform that makes uBlock block 27 requests and most certainly does contain non-free javascript. Richard Stallman talks a lot about how these thing inhibit freedom and that we should not support those companies. But when he publishes an article on ad blocking he does this on a platform that absolutely does not meet his standard on freedom.

While the guardian website does contain non-free javascript, it is not required to read the article. I currently have noscript enabled and can read the article just fine. I don't even see any ads this way, and I'm not using an adblocker.

So I'd say the website does meet his standard for freedom, because you don't need any non-free software to read it.

Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#45

Post by [deleted] »

mirimir wrote: post #43
p4bl0 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are ways to prove things without disclosing them using crypto. A very simple example is using hashing. Let's say two friends A and B want to play head-or-tail in a chat discussion. If A first tells "head" or "tail" and then do the draw and win, B won't trust that A did not cheat. But if B do the draw, then A won't trust them. What you need is a way for either A or B to choose between "head" or "tail" and them c…

Yes, I know that stuff. What I don't know is how Taler exchanges would handle customer information. The reliance on bank transfers and card payments is troubling. I've read https://taler.net/ with some care, and I'm still not clear. At https://taler.net/governments I see: > Taler is an electronic payment system that was built with the goal of supporting taxation. With Taler, the receiver of any form of payment is kno…

[deleted]

Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#46

Post by merpnderp »

mjevans wrote: post #8

That is a nice and lovely idea... Only every government everywhere hates it. If it is possible to pay for something anonymously, then there is no following the money of others paying anonymously for other reasons. Including paying for products or services that are illegal or even with money from such sales. Yes, you might compare this to cash. Cash that everyone used to carry around. It the higher denominations are m…

The official stance of US law enforcement is already that large sums of cash are presumed guilty of illegal activity and you must prove the money innocent. My state has a state question coming up to require criminal charges to seize money and you should hear the DA's grinding and gnashing their teeth over how this will flood the state in crime and drugs.

Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#48

Post by microtonal »

RVuRnvbM2e wrote: post #39
jasonkostempski wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the name of the newspaper?

Coincidentally enough, given TFA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian_Weekly

It should also be mentioned that The Guardian is one of those newspapers that is willing to experiment with different models. E.g., they have a premium tier on iOS and Android for 3 Euro per month without ads:

https://www.theguardian.com/info/2013/aug/12/1

Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#49

Post by Hoasi »

blfr wrote: post #14

Is this really the reason people block ads? I don't actually mind tracking as part of a useful service (like Google Maps). I block ads because they're 1) annoying 2) funding mass media. Depriving Bezos' WaPo or Slim's NYT of revenue is definitely a feature. If billionaires want to push propaganda, the least they can do is foot the bill. Tracking is a distant third. If an outlet I cared about ran ads, I'd white-list t…

True. Ad blocking is also a stance against advertising per se. Reasons to block ads that may come before the tracking issue for a lot of people. In no particular order:

- Plain dislike of ads

- Miss targeted ads are (even more) annoying

- Malware

- Getting rid of visual clutter (from an aesthete's perspective)

- Irrelevance

- Browser speed

- Attempt to remove distraction

- Boycott / meaning harming a particular organisation’s finances

- A combination of those

- …

But tracking awareness is growing and resistance understandable. As users profiling grow, their liberty decrease.

Re: Richard Stallman: Online Publishers Should Let Readers Pay Anonymously

#50

Post by p4bl0 »

mirimir wrote: post #43
p4bl0 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are ways to prove things without disclosing them using crypto. A very simple example is using hashing. Let's say two friends A and B want to play head-or-tail in a chat discussion. If A first tells "head" or "tail" and then do the draw and win, B won't trust that A did not cheat. But if B do the draw, then A won't trust them. What you need is a way for either A or B to choose between "head" or "tail" and them c…

Yes, I know that stuff. What I don't know is how Taler exchanges would handle customer information. The reliance on bank transfers and card payments is troubling. I've read https://taler.net/ with some care, and I'm still not clear. At https://taler.net/governments I see: > Taler is an electronic payment system that was built with the goal of supporting taxation. With Taler, the receiver of any form of payment is kno…

If I understand correctly, the reliance on bank transfers and card payments is only to put money in your wallet, which is a distinct (and asynchronous) operation from anonymous purchase. Kind of like a cash withdrawal irl (except it is not as obvious as looking at the bill's serial number to track where you spent the money).

For more information you can take a look at https://gnunet.org/sites/default/files/taler2016space.pdf (the Taler specific part starts at page 7).

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