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Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

nytimes.com

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Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#21

Post by jabbernotty »

dvt wrote: post #7
eli wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traitor is obviously a loaded term, but Snowden surely broke the law and then fled the consequences. Maybe you think it's a bad law and he had good reasons, but it's not unreasonable for people to believe he should be in jail.

To add to that, he fled to a country whose legislative and political transgressions far outnumber the United States'. Which, imo, hurts his credibility as a serious seeker of justice.

I've never understood why so many Americans believe that Snowden fled to Russia. It is simply not true and it never has been.

Are we already witnessing the rewriting of this part of history?

Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#22

Post by nullc »

ethanhunt_ wrote: post #19

The NYT is doing hit pieces on wikileaks and friends, and this is part of that (the previous one was: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/01/world/europe/wikileaks-jul... ). The NYT operates in coordination with the U.S. government (c.f. DNC email leaks that show them coordinating a Bernie article with the DNC). It is helpful to consider them as the U.S.'s own state owned media (c.f. Chomsky), and these its press releases…

I was fortunate enough to get to see an early screening of Snowden. I thought it was great-- following the facts, but telling a compelling and human story. Some of the people I saw it with

People that found themselves wondering why they should care about Snowden and the programs he disclosed will find their answer in this movie.

I expected to see a full on campaign against it, this NYT piece is mild. It spins up some conspiracy with russian involvement, yawn but even it can't to deny: The movie is good. It's riveting-- just as a movie-- and the subject matter is of importance to all of us. I can't see anyone being bored by it, and I think even the most hard core of the tech people will forgive the one or two "movie-computers" moments in it. :)

It's opening a couple days before its full release (the 16th?) at something like 800 theaters (on the 14th? I believe). I would recommend going to see it on the 14.

Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#23

Post by dvt »

tanderson92 wrote: post #20
dvt wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, yes. I think Socrates' letter to Crito[1] explains why participating in a society means we embody some of that society's values. If you are truly a hardliner when it comes to non-interventionism, continuing to live and take advantage of the United States' infrastructure and quality of life (which is what it is due to said policies) makes your position suspect. Kind of like eating meat while preaching vegetar…

Socrates has his logic, I grant you. Socrates died shortly thereafter. Snowden, on the other hand, is still relatively free to shape the public debate and further the fight for Freedom. Who is wiser, who is more strategic? I'm not dissing Socrates here, for what it's worth: I only mean that there is no contract we sign with strict logical adherence when born into an unjust society. I'm also not sure I agree that livi…

I'm not sure who's more strategic, but here we are talking about Socrates 2500 years after he drank hemlock ;)

> I'm also not sure I agree that living in a country means you morally take responsibility for all its ills.

You're attacking a strawman here, that's a very strong position. I just said it hurts his credibility and my analogy was that eating meat while preaching vegetarianism is suspect.

Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#24

Post by dvt »

jabbernotty wrote: post #21
dvt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to that, he fled to a country whose legislative and political transgressions far outnumber the United States'. Which, imo, hurts his credibility as a serious seeker of justice.

I've never understood why so many Americans believe that Snowden fled to Russia. It is simply not true and it never has been. Are we already witnessing the rewriting of this part of history?

No one's rewriting history, Russia offered him asylum and he accepted; that's the salient point. Let's not be unnecessarily pedantic and dramatic.

Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#25

Post by tanderson92 »

dvt wrote: post #23
tanderson92 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socrates has his logic, I grant you. Socrates died shortly thereafter. Snowden, on the other hand, is still relatively free to shape the public debate and further the fight for Freedom. Who is wiser, who is more strategic? I'm not dissing Socrates here, for what it's worth: I only mean that there is no contract we sign with strict logical adherence when born into an unjust society. I'm also not sure I agree that livi…

I'm not sure who's more strategic, but here we are talking about Socrates 2500 years after he drank hemlock ;) > I'm also not sure I agree that living in a country means you morally take responsibility for all its ills. You're attacking a strawman here, that's a very strong position. I just said it hurts his credibility and my analogy was that eating meat while preaching vegetarianism is suspect.

I guess that's where we diverge. I don't see working against, in this example, imperialism while living in an imperialistic state to be akin to preaching vegetarianism while eating meat. You don't have the same choice you do with meat, to simultaneously (1) live in a free society (2) work against imperialism.

Eating meat, in my "strawman" is acceptance, or rationalization, of the evil once one is aware.

Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#26

Post by jabbernotty »

dvt wrote: post #24
jabbernotty wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why so many Americans believe that Snowden fled to Russia. It is simply not true and it never has been. Are we already witnessing the rewriting of this part of history?

No one's rewriting history, Russia offered him asylum and he accepted; that's the salient point. Let's not be unnecessarily pedantic and dramatic.

There is a thin line between bold statements that lack nuance, and plain lies.

Order of events are relevant. It is important to know how he ended up in Russia in the first place, long before this asylum. And was declining the asylum really an option?

Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#27

Post by sparky1990 »

tanderson92 wrote: post #6
eli wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traitor is obviously a loaded term, but Snowden surely broke the law and then fled the consequences. Maybe you think it's a bad law and he had good reasons, but it's not unreasonable for people to believe he should be in jail.

Actually, traitor is not at all a loaded term. It has a precise meaning as found in Article III of the Constitution: > Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

Snowden is not a US citizen, so "traitor" doesn't even apply.

Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#28

Post by miend »

dvt wrote: post #24
jabbernotty wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood why so many Americans believe that Snowden fled to Russia. It is simply not true and it never has been. Are we already witnessing the rewriting of this part of history?

No one's rewriting history, Russia offered him asylum and he accepted; that's the salient point. Let's not be unnecessarily pedantic and dramatic.

He was denied the ability to travel (US revoked passport) while making a connection in Moscow. The US's actions trapped him there -- it was not his destination. Do you believe he had any reasonable choice at that point but to accept the asylum subsequently offered?

Re: Edward Snowden’s Long, Strange Journey to Hollywood

#29

Post by pastProlog »

jabbernotty wrote: post #26
dvt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one's rewriting history, Russia offered him asylum and he accepted; that's the salient point. Let's not be unnecessarily pedantic and dramatic.

There is a thin line between bold statements that lack nuance, and plain lies. Order of events are relevant. It is important to know how he ended up in Russia in the first place, long before this asylum. And was declining the asylum really an option?

The US government canceled his passport at some point between him being in Hong Kong and the Moscow airport. So the claim he "fled to Russia" is a lie. He was exiled to Russia by the US officials who actively removed his ability to leave the Russian airport.
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