Live data from Hacker News

Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

lwn.net

271–280 of 327 posts

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#271
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What reasons are there to prefer OpenOffice? From my perspective, I hear about LibreOffice updates often, and OpenOffice doesn't sound like it's being maintained as much. I don't know if this is actually correct, but I never understood what the need was for keeping them separate after Oracle gave up OO to Apache. LibreOffice seems to have 'won' popular attention if nothing else, and is the one included in distros now…

I still need OO because in the documents I work with at least, LO will not let me select certain frames. I see an awful lot of LO good OO bad comments here and elsewhere, but my user experience doesn't really conform to that pattern.

Not clear what you mean. Is there a bug report you can link to? (If not, one shouldn't be hard.)

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why so many people seem so desperate to see AOO fail and go away. In my case, the reason is splash-damage from the inverse-goodwill I have for Oracle and how their stewardship of OO (or lack thereof). To start off Sun handled the OOO-patchset (proto-LibreOffice) poorly, they should have merged it to mainline. Then Oracle came along and shat on the community leading to an outright fork. This I gue…

I think the Apache Software Foundation allowed themselves to be 'used' by allowing Oracle to dump a dying AOO into their hands. "Used" how? Apache taking on AOO has been a win for Open Source in the general sense regardless of what happens to the project going forward. A large base of code which was previously locked up under Oracle's copyright is now licensed under the ALv2 for perpetuity. At the time, it was clear…

I will reitatate that I was explaining why I have ill-will towards Oracles handling of the situation. I am not affiliated with LO beyond being a happy user, I have never been a maintainer or a regular contributor (to any project for that matter).

> "Used" how? Apache taking on AOO has been a win for Open Source in the general sense regardless of what happens to the project going forward.

A better win for Open Source in general (IMO) would have been Oracle handing over the IP to the Document Foundation- that's were the OO developers and community were. I have nothing againts the ASF, and nothing but contempt for Oracle's behavior.

From where I stand, Oracle 'used' the ASF donation to spite the DF - you may agree or disagree on that point.

> There's no "war

It was a figure of speech.

> What did happen?

Let's recap: the ASF accepted the donation of a project that had lost developers to a competing fork, and was showing glaring signs of having lost steam. More importantly, the volunteers/'community' had moved on to LO[1]. Now the ASF is finally contemplating the idea of putting down the project. I would be sad if the ASF concludes that there is nothing to be learnt from this episode.

1. A single datapoint: Virtually all Linux distros shipped LO

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand why so many people seem so desperate to see AOO fail and go away. In my case, the reason is splash-damage from the inverse-goodwill I have for Oracle and how their stewardship of OO (or lack thereof). To start off Sun handled the OOO-patchset (proto-LibreOffice) poorly, they should have merged it to mainline. Then Oracle came along and shat on the community leading to an outright fork. This I gue…

I think the Apache Software Foundation allowed themselves to be 'used' by allowing Oracle to dump a dying AOO into their hands. "Used" how? Apache taking on AOO has been a win for Open Source in the general sense regardless of what happens to the project going forward. A large base of code which was previously locked up under Oracle's copyright is now licensed under the ALv2 for perpetuity. At the time, it was clear…

[deleted]

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking more like a takeover of the Open Office codebase since its organization has collapsed. Take over the administration, steering committee, etc. I can see that the codebases have diverged, but will a lot be lost if Open Office's codebase was clobbered with the LibreOffice sources?

Apache wouldn't permit that due to their distaste for LibreOffice's licensing (read: copyleft).

LibreOffice doesn't like Apache's licensing, but AOO is happy to share the code with them and they are happy to consume it.

Both sides have strong beliefs, but the licensing situation benefits the copyleft faction.

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#275

Why does Open/LibreOffice matter anymore? This is a sincere question. I'm well aware of why OO was a big deal circa 2000 when I was using it (if I'm getting the dates right). I cannot figure out why it matters anymore, or why it will matter in 10 years. Back when every year was going to be the year of "Linux on the desktop" the linchpin was MS Office. That's because we didn't have the million different SaaS products…

The simplest argument is that if your job requires you to share documents with other people who are used to using Office document formats as their standard exchange medium, then unless you convince those people to move away from that format -- which may require either moving everyone else they exchange documents away from that format, or treating you as a special snowflake -- you're stuck.

If you're in a tech space full of plain text document formats, dealing with folks who love Markdown and use programmer-centric diff tools, all of this can certainly be irrelevant. (I'm in that space in my day job and with personal projects that don't involve other people.) But for a lot of, well, office jobs, that's a non-starter. And Google Docs, while it has some great things to recommend it, doesn't have the feature set Office does. (There's a long-standing observation that while most users only use 20% of Microsoft Word's features, for any two given users that 20% may not be identical.)

I work with fiction editors, and I need to be able round-trip manuscripts with embedded comments and revision tracking. Google Docs doesn't cut it for me. Actually, none of the OO-based suites (LO, AOO or NeoOffice) were able to round-trip transparently with Microsoft Word in my admittedly limited testing back in 2014, although that may no longer be the case. (They all have the required functionality, but bits and bobs of formatting and metadata would go away when the document moved from LO to Word back to LO.)

tl;dr: LibreOffice will matter as long as Microsoft Office matters, and whether we like it or not, in an awful lot of the business world, Microsoft Office still matters a whole lot.

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, maybe shortcuts are discoverable, but actual actions no longer are. Not everyone finds the ribbon an improvement; I feel the need to point that out since so many comments appeared praising the awfully opaque ribbon.

How so? Why are actions hidden in nested menus easier to find than in the ribbon?

In my opinion yes. Or rather, Windows users have had decades being trained to find certain functionality under certain menu options to the degree that most will do it by second nature irrespective of the application they're in. The ribbon menu throws all that muscle memory away and leaves you trying to find it again in an interface that no other applications use.

I don't frequently need to use office products but when I do I find them absolutely infuriating.

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#277
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenOffice and LibreOffice are already "merged". In fact in the past years, after the fork, LibreOffice developers regularly tracked OpenOffice source code repository and merged all the useful changes they could find, by either picking the original code or re-implementing it their own way. In addition to that they also completely overhauled and simplified the build system, removed tons of dead code and translated Ger…

" In fact in the past years, after the fork, LibreOffice developers regularly tracked OpenOffice source code repository and merged all the useful changes they could find, by either picking the original code or re-implementing it their own way. " And therein lies the problem... AOO was simply consumed. There was no quid-pro-quo where these were then donated back to AOO. Of course, the ALv2 does not require that, and s…

LibreOffice exists because Sun wasn't accepting useful contributions to OpenOffice or putting much effort into maintaining it, and then Sun was acquired by Oracle, an open-source-hostile (to say the least; they killed OpenSolaris and sued Google for reimplementing Java!) company. So they had to fork.

Of course, because everyone then ran away to LibreOffice, OpenOffice basically died. And, as expected, Oracle hardly cared for it, stopped work on it entirely and handed it off to the Apache Foundation to die.

Really, they should've transferred the trademark and copyright to the Document Foundation instead, or at least coöperated with them. But that wouldn't have been spiteful enough of the community. In fact:

> Oracle was invited to become a member of The Document Foundation. However, Oracle demanded that all members of the OpenOffice.org Community Council involved with The Document Foundation step down from the OOo Community Council, claiming a conflict of interest.

> It was originally hoped that the LibreOffice name would be provisional, as Oracle was invited to become a member of The Document Foundation. However, Oracle rejected requests to donate the OpenOffice.org brand to the project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreOffice#The_Document_Found...

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#278
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OpenOffice is a better name than LibreOffice. It rolls of the tongue more smoothly, and it is easier to explain to people. On the other hand LibreOffice has the lion's share of the developers (and probably of the users by now). So a "takeover" of OpenOffice by the LibreOffice project would probably be the best solution at this point (at least as far as I can tell).

I'm not entirely sure of the current situation, but ... If you look they call it "Apache OpenOffice". Previously what we term "OpenOffice" was only called "OpenOffice.org (OOo)", why? Well because there was already a product trademarked and marketed as Open Office and IIRC there was a legal challenge. So OOo was the open version of StarOffice. Perhaps Sun/Oracle or Apache bought that trademark? A brief search at USPT…

Oracle used to sell Oracle Open Office, the commercial edition of OpenOffice.org.

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#279
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are proving my point... AOO was "plundered" by LO but LO never gave anything back. So any "co-opporation" was extremely one-sided and one-direction. It was hoped that LO, as good FOSS neighbors, would donate back, even though they didn't have to, just as we hope that our corporate neighbors also donate back. We trust in altruism rather than in forcing it. It just so happens in this case that our trust was…

Elsewhere in this thread, grandinj of LO notes that he tried to donate back and there weren't enough people at Apache to do anything with the patches. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12414681 So you did get your wish, but it's not the LO people at fault.

I'd like to see some of those patches...

Re: Contemplating the possible retirement of Apache OpenOffice

#280

Could they drop openoffice, then rename libreoffice to openoffice? That would be fantastic

> Could they drop openoffice, then rename libreoffice to openoffice? That would be fantastic

Oh, the Document Foundation (which makes LibreOffice) wanted to do that. But Oracle decided to hand OpenOffice.org to the Apache Foundation instead, presumably out of spite.

Post reply on HN