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FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

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201–210 of 255 posts

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#201
post #3

Is there any reason why these companies would include a seemingly ineffective element into their product other than being able to say "antibacterial" on the label? It couldn't possibly have been CHEAPER to add them to soaps when it became the new meta, so it'd be interesting if marketing was the sole reason for it.

The same reason why we see sugar with label "carbon free" and water with label "no GMO". Marketing. Yes, it gets old with time and they have to look for the next gimmick. But if that brings them some income in the meantime, that's what they do.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#202
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I have no idea why" seems like a good place to start doing some research. In short (and as mentioned elsewhere in this thread), "the soap you choose to buy" may affect the ecosystem we live in. In particular, the bacteria that may infect us. When products on the market cause a public health concern, it is absolutely within the purview of government to regulate said products.

What about all the pain caused by alcohol? From liver damage to its use as a date rape drug to drunk driving. The liver damage is personal, so that might get a pass, but the rest hurts people who don't choose to drink. Is there evidence showing antibacterial soap does more harm than alcoholic drinks?

This analogy is not a good one. None of the alcohol-related effects fall into "tragedy of the commons" territory the way creating antibiotic-resistant super germs does.

Liver damage is a person harming themselves by their own choice. Drunk driving is a collection of specific instances of a person breaking the law and taking action which will cause direct harm to another. Alcohol as date rape is just a non sequitur designed to be incendiary. It only effects people who drink and, again, is just a person using alcohol to aid them in committing a crime.

Commonly available antibacterial hand soap hurts everyone even if you are using it reasonably, legally, and responsibly. The harm to the commons is directly proportional to the quantity of it that is used in the normal, reasonable way by everyone.

Alcohol is not great for "society" because it increases the likelihood people will make bad decisions, and can cause specific health problems for the people who choose to use it.

This is akin to emissions standards, which I assume you oppose as well?

Saying you are comparing apples and oranges wouldn't be accurate, because at least apples and oranges are both foods.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#203
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Surely there is some negative effects to any recreational drug use, especially alcohol. There are also significant benefits to recreational drug use, especially alcohol. The same is not true of antibacterial soaps.

But people spend millions on this product every year? Surely they get some benefit. You can argue that the benefits of drug use are actually a mirage since it's linked to so many other problems, health and social.

> But people spend millions on this product every year? Surely they get some benefit

A psychological one, sure. They perceive that they're getting a health benefit (whether or not they actually are), so the money seems worth it. But the evidence is that it doesn't actually get your hands cleaner than non-antibacterial soap and that it may contribute to creating stronger bacteria.

The FDA's judgement is that the downsides outweigh the upsides. I tend to agree.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#204

So what is the difference in effectiveness between normal soap and hand sanitizer with ethanol and isopropanol?

Alcohols actually kill bacteria.

They also harm your skin, that is protecting you from infection, so get your conclusions, because I don't have any study on it being healthier to use or not to use them.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#205
post #158

> Companies will no longer be able to market antibacterial washes with these ingredients because manufacturers did not demonstrate that the ingredients are both safe for long-term daily use ... Then why were they allowed to market them in the first place? If safety was an issue, and it demonstrably is because that's one reason they're being pulled, then why did they not have to prove before marketing?

You can't prove something is safe, because there might always be future knowledge that you don't yet know. A sticker that repels tigers will seem safe until the day you are actually attacked by a tiger. But only one attack is needed to disprove the premise that stickers keep tigers away. In this specific case, the antibiotic agents started being added to soap decades ago. Of course we know a lot more about biology an…

> You can't prove something is safe, because there might always be future knowledge that you don't yet know.

Don't tell that to the religiously pro-GMO crowd.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#206
post #158

> Companies will no longer be able to market antibacterial washes with these ingredients because manufacturers did not demonstrate that the ingredients are both safe for long-term daily use ... Then why were they allowed to market them in the first place? If safety was an issue, and it demonstrably is because that's one reason they're being pulled, then why did they not have to prove before marketing?

You can't prove something is safe, because there might always be future knowledge that you don't yet know. A sticker that repels tigers will seem safe until the day you are actually attacked by a tiger. But only one attack is needed to disprove the premise that stickers keep tigers away. In this specific case, the antibiotic agents started being added to soap decades ago. Of course we know a lot more about biology an…

You can demonstrate compliance with some definition of demonstrate and safe, like per whatever the FDA requires.

But you make excellent points, thanks. And I suppose what got the manufacturers in trouble wasn't so much their products as their claims.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#207
post #3

Is there any reason why these companies would include a seemingly ineffective element into their product other than being able to say "antibacterial" on the label? It couldn't possibly have been CHEAPER to add them to soaps when it became the new meta, so it'd be interesting if marketing was the sole reason for it.

I wonder if the public policy intent of this regulation could have been met by permitting soaps to label themselves as antibacterial without containing any of the prohibited compounds (or even lie about containing them).

Soap is pretty antibacterial by itself. ... and now I wonder if we'll next see a wave of soaps containing various reactive nanoparticles what whatever potentially not healthy stuff they'll use to address the fact that the public thinks it wants to buy something that is antibacterial.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#208
post #26

What about hand sanitizers? Should we not be using those as well or is limited usage ( say keeping a bottle in the car for use before you scarf down a McDouble ) ok?

I've been spraying my hands off with 70% ethanol in labs for the past ~10 years. So, FWIW, a lot of people with phds in microbiology do that (to protect themselves and their experiments from themselves).

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We seem doing well with most workers in butcher shops and restaurants just washing their hands with regular soap.

Are they, though? I suspect most butcher shops and restaurants are using antibacterial soap at this point. I go out of my way to try to buy non-antibacterial soap and it's often impossible to find. I imagine most businesses just order whatever's the first thing they see in the catalog/web site, and it's probably antibacterial because that's what most people think they want at home.

Impossible to find? Where do you shop? Where I live, the non-antibacterial soap outnumbers the anti-bacterial soap 4:1 or more on the shelves.

Re: FDA Orders Antibacterials Removed from Consumer Soaps

#210

I guess I'm weird; I have no idea why the government has the ability to dictate what is and isn't in the soap that I choose to buy. I agree however, anti-bacterial soap is silly. Looks like a lot of people here agree. Looks like a market segment to me. Didn't need a gun, theft, or a jail cell to create it.

You're not weird, in fact, you're thinking about a very interesting question. What is "government" or "law"? From whence does it derive its "authority"? What is a valid application of this thing called "government" or "State"? They're old now, but I think some of the best answers to this are found in the writings of Frederic Bastiat.[1] This bit in particular is relevant: ------ What, then, is law? It is the collecti…

The problem with Bastiat's analysis is that civilization is a cartel, and government is our cartel enforcer. We have thus delegated power to the state that we have not retained for ourselves. If we did retain those powers, the cartel could not function, and we would be forced to revert to Nash equilibrium strategies rather than maximized outcomes.

The law is not a pooling of resources. It is a compact wherein everyone holds the same blade to everyone's throats, so that everyone will behave in a manner that benefits the whole, rather than out of pure self-interest. Thus, a government may lawfully do those things that individuals have given up as a condition of maintaining good standing in the cartel.

The enforcer needs to be exactly as monstrous as is required to discourage cartel defections.

As you might expect, this leads to a host of real and potential problems with governments, but those problems have a different root cause than the state acting outside the authority of natural law, and are practically insurmountable for quite different reasons.

Government derives its authority from being a better-than-random strategy in a massive, never-ending game wherein players are continually chosen at random to participate in a Prisoner's Dilemma. Government provides an incentive to consistently cooperate rather than defect. Other winning strategies may exist. Some of them may even produce better overall scores. We allow government to exist and direct certain aspects of our lives because, on average, it makes us richer in the long run. Or it makes enough of us richer that we are prepared to gamble, to try to be one of them.

One of the biggest problems is not being able to know for certain whether the government player is defecting against us in the metagame, even as we cooperate. How do we prove mathematically whether the state really is acting in the best interests of all of its people, treating each of them equally, or not?

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