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The Internet Should Be a Public Good

jacobinmag.com

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Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#91

Post by dtornabene »

tptacek wrote: post #63
borkborkbork wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's just better at dodging my questions than you are :). But please, keep erecting your straw man. The entire point of this is that the internet would be fundamentally different if it were democratically controlled. That does not mean we would miss out on innovations like streaming video. It does mean that average users would have faster speeds and more control over their data. This of course assumes a political env…

This isn't complicated. To believe the USG could have created an equivalent or better Internet as a regulated public utility, you have to believe that none of the major attributes of the modern Internet were produced through competition, because that is what you lose when you nationalize and regulate an industry. Electricity, gas, and water work as utilities because to a first approximation, the only competitive acce…

This presumes that innovation comes about only as a result of competition.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#92

Post by dtornabene »

tptacek wrote: post #80
borkborkbork wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually enjoying this conversation. That's why I've stuck around this long. To quote your last comment: "What they do instead is impose regulatory frameworks that forbid companies that could run gig fiber networks from doing so unless they also serve markets where they would hemorrhage money." Who cares if they're hemorrhaging money? The Public Works Administration hemorrhaged money electrifying the South. The P…

You don't even seem to be reading my comments anymore. You've invented a disagreement that we don't even have, so you could reintroduce politics. I'm not interested in having a political argument with you. Incidentally, you may be chuckling at the tenor of this conversation and where it's going, but as I've told you repeatedly, I am taking offense. I am not enjoying it, and I wish you'd stop.

The article in question is a political article, and the solutions it posits are, by definition, political. Just because you don't feel that you're in any way having a political conversation does not necessarily make it so.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#93

Post by tptacek »

dtornabene wrote: post #90
tptacek wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure if the government had retained full control of the Internet as a regulated public utility, the US would have the finest Department of Streaming Video in the world.

Why is this any different than the previous upthread comments you called "rude" and labeled with Forum Psych 101 : Fallacy Section. Its kind of ugly, honestly. I say this as someone who has actually taken the time to email you before, thanking you for calling out racism.

As I said elsewhere: mine is a substantive dismissal, and theirs is an ad hominem argument directed at a misapprehension about my politics. If you disagree with my argument, disagree with it.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#94

Post by tptacek »

dtornabene wrote: post #91
tptacek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't complicated. To believe the USG could have created an equivalent or better Internet as a regulated public utility, you have to believe that none of the major attributes of the modern Internet were produced through competition, because that is what you lose when you nationalize and regulate an industry. Electricity, gas, and water work as utilities because to a first approximation, the only competitive acce…

This presumes that innovation comes about only as a result of competition.

I don't believe that it always does. I do believe that almost all of the innovation we've seen on the Internet has come from competition.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#95

Post by tptacek »

dtornabene wrote: post #92
tptacek wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't even seem to be reading my comments anymore. You've invented a disagreement that we don't even have, so you could reintroduce politics. I'm not interested in having a political argument with you. Incidentally, you may be chuckling at the tenor of this conversation and where it's going, but as I've told you repeatedly, I am taking offense. I am not enjoying it, and I wish you'd stop.

The article in question is a political article, and the solutions it posits are, by definition, political. Just because you don't feel that you're in any way having a political conversation does not necessarily make it so.

I'm not objecting to politics in general. I'm objecting to continually being asked to pass a political purity test in this particular branch of the discussion. I shouldn't have to explain to the other commenter why they're wrong about my politics. It was bogus and rude for them to invent a political straw man and attribute to me.

I'm prickly about this, because, as you might know, this happens all the time here.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#96

Post by dtornabene »

tptacek wrote: post #94
dtornabene wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presumes that innovation comes about only as a result of competition.

I don't believe that it always does. I do believe that almost all of the innovation we've seen on the Internet has come from competition.

Would it not be fair then, to say that came about from specific circumstances peculiar to America?

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#97

Post by dtornabene »

tptacek wrote: post #95
dtornabene wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article in question is a political article, and the solutions it posits are, by definition, political. Just because you don't feel that you're in any way having a political conversation does not necessarily make it so.

I'm not objecting to politics in general. I'm objecting to continually being asked to pass a political purity test in this particular branch of the discussion. I shouldn't have to explain to the other commenter why they're wrong about my politics. It was bogus and rude for them to invent a political straw man and attribute to me. I'm prickly about this, because, as you might know, this happens all the time here.

fwiw I do know that it happens all the time here. And, as someone whose politics runs very far to the left contra this forum (I'm a regular Jacobin reader), I can appreciate the annoyance. I did strike me as a bit dissonant, coming from you.

Edit: also, not having to constantly battle either a) trolls or b) what I feel to be right wing libertarian myopia is one of the reasons I've commented so little here, so, I Get It. I've been a reader/lurker for something like 7 years now. early 2009, I believe.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#98

Post by tptacek »

dtornabene wrote: post #96
tptacek wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that it always does. I do believe that almost all of the innovation we've seen on the Internet has come from competition.

Would it not be fair then, to say that came about from specific circumstances peculiar to America?

Why would that be the case? Has it generally been the case that innovations on the Internet have been generated from countries where the Internet is (more like) a public utility, and only then imported here? That's not my impression.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#99

Post by tptacek »

dtornabene wrote: post #97
tptacek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not objecting to politics in general. I'm objecting to continually being asked to pass a political purity test in this particular branch of the discussion. I shouldn't have to explain to the other commenter why they're wrong about my politics. It was bogus and rude for them to invent a political straw man and attribute to me. I'm prickly about this, because, as you might know, this happens all the time here.

fwiw I do know that it happens all the time here. And, as someone whose politics runs very far to the left contra this forum (I'm a regular Jacobin reader), I can appreciate the annoyance. I did strike me as a bit dissonant, coming from you. Edit: also, not having to constantly battle either a) trolls or b) what I feel to be right wing libertarian myopia is one of the reasons I've commented so little here, so, I Get…

Some years ago, during a phase in which every other comment on this site seemed to be accusing me of being an NSA shill, I made a decision never to spell out my particular (boring, especially if you know where I live) political beliefs in response to people accusing me of having a particular political inclination. Doing so might simplify (dumb, lazy) arguments. But we shouldn't have to do that.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#100

Post by dtornabene »

tptacek wrote: post #98
dtornabene wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it not be fair then, to say that came about from specific circumstances peculiar to America?

Why would that be the case? Has it generally been the case that innovations on the Internet have been generated from countries where the Internet is (more like) a public utility, and only then imported here? That's not my impression.

My own feelings on this would take a long time to sketch out, and are pretty diffuse tbh. They would also depend not so much on the internet per se but on high technology in general. I would point to early Israel, which was highly, almost exclusively socialistic (and in ways not reproduced anywhere else, i.e. the kibbutzim) as being capable of high tech innovation with a highly dynamic state sector. Also, I feel it worth pointing out that (even though it doesn't make my argument any stronger) that just because something has been the case up until now doesn't make it The Only Way It Works.
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