Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#421

Post by ricksplat » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 8:38 AM UTC

QuarterReptile wrote: post #411

doctorpangloss wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the result of expert lobbying. You don't need expert lobbying. Look at this forum, full of tax-evasion apologists who conflate pragmatism with pedantry. Pedantry is the one of the most intellectually and emotionally bankrupt moral frameworks. It basically states that if you just think about the rules a lot, then you will find the solution. I mean, obviously all these politicians and normal people, they've just been…

The pedantry you're referring to is also sometimes called "rule of law", and it's more beneficial than the expediency of witch trials. I avoid taxes as much as possible, though I admittedly lack the team of lawyers, and everyone who puts money in retirement accounts is also just avoiding taxes. I hate Walmart for their ruinous development patterns, but I don't fault them for working within the system they're given. D…

> Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Said every gangster ever.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#422

Post by premium-concern » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 10:34 AM UTC

nedwin wrote: post #379

premium-concern wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which would be a shit-ton of money with their current tax "avoidance" schemes.

Which is why it exists - to reduce tax avoidance by holing up in tax-friendly jurisdictions away from Uncle Sam.

I love how people try to downplay the things corporations do.

"Oh, it's not tax evasion, it's tax avoidance!"

And now "oh, it's not tax avoidance, it's tax-friendly jurisdictions".

Let's just agree to close the loopholes so that everyone pays their fair share.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#423

Post by premium-concern » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 10:36 AM UTC

speleding wrote: post #341

soperj wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the point where Godwin's law comes into effect. Seriously though, it was legal to own slaves in the US not all that long ago, most people now a days wouldn't say "There is no wrong doing here", just because it was legal.

The only relationship between slavery and corporate profit tax is that both should be abolished. There are hundreds of different ways to tax. Taxing corporate profit is controversial because it's very hard to determine what exactly constitutes profit and for multinational firms like Apple deciding in what jurisdiction profit occurs is highly arbitrary (your iPhone has parts from half a dozen countries). The most logi…

So what you are saying is that we should let poor people pay more taxes instead?

Because that is what abolishing corporate profit tax comes down to. The only substantial tax most states have are consumer taxes, and we all know that these taxes disproportionately hurt people that are already poor.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#424

Post by shaqbert » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 11:18 AM UTC

nodamage wrote: post #378

shaqbert wrote: post #118

What Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and most other big US company do is the so called "double Irish"[1]. Essentially is a clever way of using two quirks of some EU countries loopholes in tax laws, from treating IP licensing fees (of course the brand and intellectual IP is owned by a British virgin island tax haven, where else could this stuff be created/invented), and the net result is that Apple et al end up payi…

I posted this in the other thread on the subject but it's worth repeating here: Apple does not actually have any subsidiaries in the British Virgin Islands (or any other Caribbean island), and (despite common belief) it has not actually moved its intellectual property offshore. Apple's international tax structure was thoroughly documented when they were called up to testify before the Senate, which you can read about…

Yes, you are right, Apple does not use the Caribbean tax shell company shenanigans most other tech giants using the double Irish do. But why bother, when Ireland gives you the sweetheart deal even BETTER than what the Caribbean tax cheats have on offer...

So replace my BVI sub with that "fairy tale green island of tax cheat's dreams... "

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#425

Post by Marazan » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 12:01 PM UTC

X86BSD wrote: post #327

shaqbert wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US tax code is a huge mess, agreed. But you gotta pay your dues (aka taxes) somewhere, and here Apple et al goes essentially Scot free. That is not cool.

Every time this apple in Ireland tax issue comes up it makes my brain hurt, literally hurt to read all these replies who don't seem to look at this problem correctly. First, Apple did nothing illegal. There is no wrong doing here. They pay tax in every country they owe tax. Period. Second, perhaps it's not Apple that's the problem? Perhaps it's the tax that is the problem. If you have mega corps building entities out…

Apple asked for a special exemption and got it.

Apple paid 0.0005% tax on its European profita. There is no non-'insane' tax code that could compete with that.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#426

Post by hackerboos » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

nodamage wrote: post #388

hackerboos wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the case, how does Apple have such an effectively low tax rate?

They have a specially negotiated rate with Ireland. (The crux of this issue is whether Ireland granting them a special rate was legal under EU law.) Edit: Actually, "special rate" is a bit misleading, as it implies Apple went to Ireland and said "hey, we'd only like to pay .05% instead of 12.5%" and Ireland said okay. The way it actually works (as described in the previously mentioned Senate memo) is that ASI (the Ir…

Thanks for the example. It clarifies things. I can see how the EC claimed that Ireland was giving Apple 'state aid' although it looks like any company doing this would also be subject to a ruling like this.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#427

Post by philippoi » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 3:21 PM UTC

plandis wrote: post #322

flexie wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland is hardly a scape-goat. The commission has dealt in a similar manner with Amazon in Luxembourg, Starbucks in the Netherlands, and Anheuser-Busch InBev in Belgium. Whether or not there is an agreement between Apple and Ireland or just an understanding that Ireland would not tax them on almost any income is irrelevant. The point of the matter is that the effect of the scheme has been that Apple has paid next to…

Boy, it sure seems weird that the EU has only gone after American companies for this...

InBev is not American, and it could be you're only hearing about the cases relevant to American news companies' customers.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#428

Post by dsacco » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 7:00 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #312

jcrei wrote: post #178

I only wish that countries would compete for people the same way they compete for businesses. If they were to provide the best services, quality of life, in exchange for the lowest income taxes. That way people would move there and companies would follow. Wishful thinking?

They do. Why do you think New York City and London get to tax at the rates they do? Taxes (at least personal taxes) are a user fee. Every time an employee snuffs at an offer in Missouri or Bangladesh, they are implicitly signalling a preference for quality-of-life elements.

You don't have an email in your profile, but I'd like to get in touch with you. Would you mind letting me know the best way to do so? My email is in my profile.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#429

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

dsacco wrote: post #428

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do. Why do you think New York City and London get to tax at the rates they do? Taxes (at least personal taxes) are a user fee. Every time an employee snuffs at an offer in Missouri or Bangladesh, they are implicitly signalling a preference for quality-of-life elements.

You don't have an email in your profile, but I'd like to get in touch with you. Would you mind letting me know the best way to do so? My email is in my profile.

Shot you an email

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#430

Post by nodamage » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 7:29 PM UTC

shaqbert wrote: post #424

nodamage wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I posted this in the other thread on the subject but it's worth repeating here: Apple does not actually have any subsidiaries in the British Virgin Islands (or any other Caribbean island), and (despite common belief) it has not actually moved its intellectual property offshore. Apple's international tax structure was thoroughly documented when they were called up to testify before the Senate, which you can read about…

Yes, you are right, Apple does not use the Caribbean tax shell company shenanigans most other tech giants using the double Irish do. But why bother, when Ireland gives you the sweetheart deal even BETTER than what the Caribbean tax cheats have on offer... So replace my BVI sub with that "fairy tale green island of tax cheat's dreams... "

The irony is maybe they'll set one up now...