The Internet Should Be a Public Good • Hacker News Board

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#61

Post by borkborkbork » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:24 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #57

borkborkbork wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not my argument. Publicly funded does not necessarily mean primarily academic. The market is not the only driver of public demand for goods and services. Streaming video is a fairly obvious innovation that benefits the general public.

That's certainly your argument. But you're doing a better job of losing it to 'tptacek than to me. Please don't let me distract you any further.

He's just better at dodging my questions than you are :). But please, keep erecting your straw man.

The entire point of this is that the internet would be fundamentally different if it were democratically controlled. That does not mean we would miss out on innovations like streaming video. It does mean that average users would have faster speeds and more control over their data. This of course assumes a political environment geared towards the average citizen. Sadly, in the United States, that is not currently the case. But it is achievable, and we used to be much closer to that ideal.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#62

Post by run4yourlives2 » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

jomamaxx wrote: post #44

badsock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In BC, Canada the provision of electricity and water are by provincial/municipal governments, have very similiar requirements in terms of running wires/pipes, and in my experience have delivered much better services. They don't constantly try to gouge me. I've had to call their support lines maybe a few times my entire life (as opposed to many tens of times for telcos). And I really don't see how sending bits could b…

"In BC, Canada the provision of electricity and water are by provincial/municipal governments, have very similiar requirements in terms of running wires/pipes, and in my experience have delivered much better services." The internet is not 'electricity'. The internet evolves rapidly over time, there are competing technologies etc. My friend, the Province of 'British Colombia' delivers some of the worst healthcare in t…

> worst healthcare in the Western world - and they don't even have your records online.

One does not imply the other. In many ways I'm quite happy my medical information isn't all over the web. As a resident of BC myself, I don't see much of a difference between our heath care and ON or AB; other provinces I've lived in. You can argue that the Canadian system is flawed, but I have the Cambie centre that I can pay for and receive care on par with US quality right now.

>Also - you are gouged on pricing.

Demonstrably False. Your made in ON problem isn't shared by everyone else, thanks.

https://www.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/rates-energy-use/el...

http://www.hydroquebec.com/publications/en/docs/comparaison-...

>Unless there is a big 'build out

There should be one, right now. The entire country should be getting fiber to the door. That will be the last required physical infrastructure upgrade required for a long time. A national not-for-profit entity should own all of that, and the carriers can then compete/lease it to provide services.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#63

Post by tptacek » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:28 PM UTC

borkborkbork wrote: post #61

throwanem wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly your argument. But you're doing a better job of losing it to 'tptacek than to me. Please don't let me distract you any further.

He's just better at dodging my questions than you are :). But please, keep erecting your straw man. The entire point of this is that the internet would be fundamentally different if it were democratically controlled. That does not mean we would miss out on innovations like streaming video. It does mean that average users would have faster speeds and more control over their data. This of course assumes a political env…

This isn't complicated. To believe the USG could have created an equivalent or better Internet as a regulated public utility, you have to believe that none of the major attributes of the modern Internet were produced through competition, because that is what you lose when you nationalize and regulate an industry.

Electricity, gas, and water work as utilities because to a first approximation, the only competitive access is price. One thing regulation can do is drive prices to an acceptable place (often not the lowest price, but a satisficing price).

But that is not the only axis of competition for Internet service. Nobody knows or cares what the quality of their gas service is, but most people can tell you how fast their Internet connection is, and not everyone wants the same service.

As I pointed out downthread, when telecom was a regulated utility, we didn't even have competition in telephone handsets.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#64

Post by borkborkbork » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:30 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #59

borkborkbork wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not my argument. Publicly funded does not necessarily mean primarily academic. The market is not the only driver of public demand for goods and services. Streaming video is a fairly obvious innovation that benefits the general public.

I'm sure if the government had retained full control of the Internet as a regulated public utility, the US would have the finest Department of Streaming Video in the world.

The attitude that leads to you ridicule government provided services is exactly why I made my previous comment about your obvious political bias. It wasn't any more rude than the sarcasm that you're exhibiting here.

Ask the Brits about the NHS.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#65

Post by tptacek » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

borkborkbork wrote: post #64

tptacek wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure if the government had retained full control of the Internet as a regulated public utility, the US would have the finest Department of Streaming Video in the world.

The attitude that leads to you ridicule government provided services is exactly why I made my previous comment about your obvious political bias. It wasn't any more rude than the sarcasm that you're exhibiting here. Ask the Brits about the NHS.

One difference between my comment and yours is that you were in fact incorrect about my political inclinations, but I am not in fact wrong about the service model of a regulated public Internet.

You're doing the same thing by asking me to litigate the NHS: presuming that I'm opposed to all government services and all regulations. I won't play that game: you are out of bounds by personalizing this, and asking me to pass a purity test to continue arguing with you isn't reasonable.

Argue better.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#66

Post by run4yourlives2 » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:32 PM UTC

rhino369 wrote: post #52

badsock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In BC, Canada the provision of electricity and water are by provincial/municipal governments, have very similiar requirements in terms of running wires/pipes, and in my experience have delivered much better services. They don't constantly try to gouge me. I've had to call their support lines maybe a few times my entire life (as opposed to many tens of times for telcos). And I really don't see how sending bits could b…

The government could do it that way, but you have to trust them to do it correctly the first time. Because those government run utilities don't run on ten year upgrade schedules they run on 100year upgrade schedules. When homes and apartments are connected to water and power networks they never get upgraded. A national internet service designed in 1999 might just be ADSL for everyone. There is a lot of talk about how…

>A national internet service designed in 1999 might just be ADSL for everyone.

Recognizing the irony here that for vast swaths of the country, that would be a marked improvement over the status quo. (Although it probably would have been cable in Canada given existing penetration at the time.)

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#67

Post by borkborkbork » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:35 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #63

borkborkbork wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's just better at dodging my questions than you are :). But please, keep erecting your straw man. The entire point of this is that the internet would be fundamentally different if it were democratically controlled. That does not mean we would miss out on innovations like streaming video. It does mean that average users would have faster speeds and more control over their data. This of course assumes a political env…

This isn't complicated. To believe the USG could have created an equivalent or better Internet as a regulated public utility, you have to believe that none of the major attributes of the modern Internet were produced through competition, because that is what you lose when you nationalize and regulate an industry. Electricity, gas, and water work as utilities because to a first approximation, the only competitive acce…

Yeah, they'll tell you their internet connection speed is shitty. Unless you live in Chattanooga, where the evil Department of Fiber Optics is busy oppressing them.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#68

Post by tptacek » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:39 PM UTC

borkborkbork wrote: post #67

tptacek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't complicated. To believe the USG could have created an equivalent or better Internet as a regulated public utility, you have to believe that none of the major attributes of the modern Internet were produced through competition, because that is what you lose when you nationalize and regulate an industry. Electricity, gas, and water work as utilities because to a first approximation, the only competitive acce…

Yeah, they'll tell you their internet connection speed is shitty. Unless you live in Chattanooga, where the evil Department of Fiber Optics is busy oppressing them.

Go look up EPB's ASN and see which public utility companies they're peering with to get Chattanooga customers in touch with Google.

But this is entirely silly. EPB is great. More cities should run their own last-mile networks. What they do instead is impose regulatory frameworks that forbid companies that could run gig fiber networks from doing so unless they also serve markets where they would hemorrhage money.

But the success of public utilities in places like Chattanooga is not an argument that a public utility could have built the modern Internet. To see just one reason why, try to host Youtube or Netflix on EPB's network.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#69

Post by borkborkbork » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:41 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #65

borkborkbork wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The attitude that leads to you ridicule government provided services is exactly why I made my previous comment about your obvious political bias. It wasn't any more rude than the sarcasm that you're exhibiting here. Ask the Brits about the NHS.

One difference between my comment and yours is that you were in fact incorrect about my political inclinations, but I am not in fact wrong about the service model of a regulated public Internet. You're doing the same thing by asking me to litigate the NHS: presuming that I'm opposed to all government services and all regulations. I won't play that game: you are out of bounds by personalizing this, and asking me to pa…

I haven't asked you to do anything of the sort. I point out the NHS because I want you to explain why the internet is fundamentally different. You've done an excellent job explaining how the existing internet emerged. You've done nothing to discredit my actual argument.

Re: The Internet Should Be a Public Good

#70

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 31, 2016, 6:43 PM UTC

borkborkbork wrote: post #69

tptacek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One difference between my comment and yours is that you were in fact incorrect about my political inclinations, but I am not in fact wrong about the service model of a regulated public Internet. You're doing the same thing by asking me to litigate the NHS: presuming that I'm opposed to all government services and all regulations. I won't play that game: you are out of bounds by personalizing this, and asking me to pa…

I haven't asked you to do anything of the sort. I point out the NHS because I want you to explain why the internet is fundamentally different. You've done an excellent job explaining how the existing internet emerged. You've done nothing to discredit my actual argument.

[deleted]