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Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

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Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#191
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say 'recalling a conversation', you mean going over notes from the time he interviewed Ehrlichmann for a book. Given that Baum is a professional journalist, whose career depends on being able to accurately quote people, I reckon it's a bit better sourced that your phrasing suggests. Note also that Erlichmann's family based their denial of the Baum story partly on the notion that he never said anything racist…

> Note also that Erlichmann's family based their denial of the Baum story partly on the notion that he never said anything racist in front of them - though his propensity for racism is definitely confirmed in the Watergate tapes. Look, I'm not really here to stick up for Ehrlichmann. After all, he did go to jail for some time for conspiracy and obstruction of justice. First of all, that already makes him the least re…

> Look, I'm not really here to stick up for Ehrlichmann. After all, he did go to jail for some time for conspiracy and obstruction of justice. First of all, that already makes him the least reliable of witnesses, even if he really did say that. Second, he's an easy target for a journalist that wants to sensationalize their story, and instead believing him just because "he's a journalist" is not rational. Dan Baum has written about that interview before and there was never anything close to that damning of a quote. This is why I think this quote is total hogwash. It fits exactly what you want to hear deep down about two bad people: Ehrlichmann and Nixon. Too bad it's likely a fabrication, with zero evidence otherwise.

"likely a fabrication"

"with zero evidence otherwise"

The burden of proof is on you to show that the quote is a fabrication, not on the journalist.

Let's go through it, though.

Going to jail for conspiracy and obstruction of justice makes him a criminal, but not necessarily a liar on techniques the U.S. government used against counterculture.

Secondly, Nixon and his administration did outrageous things. You can hardly dismiss more allegations of outrageous acts as more-likely-to-be-fabricated because it fits pre-existing narrative. That's, like, the opposite of how priors work. "It fits exactly what you want to hear deep down about two bad people: Ehrlichmann and Nixon" -- YES! Nixon and Ehrlichmann were bad people and did bad things. Did they do what Ehrlichmann (allegedly) describes? Who knows, but it isn't an argument against their having done something horrific that they had other horrific policies.

Nixon, you may remember, bugged a Supreme Court justice.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No.... it's a constitutionally limited democratic republic. That's supposed to prevent "the majority of the voting public" from mandating stupid laws and forcing the minority to live under them. As such, place the blame where it belongs: the majority of Democratic and Republican party politicians, who have employed the drug war as a means to preserve or increase their political power, and to distract and propagandize…

> No.... it's a constitutionally limited democratic republic. That's supposed to prevent "the majority of the voting public" from mandating stupid laws and forcing the minority to live under them. No, its supposed to stop the majority of the voting public from mandating laws that violate essential liberty and forcing the minority to live under them. Its not supposed to stop the majority of the voting public from mand…

It would seem that the issue in dispute is whether a law can be stupid without also violating essential liberty in some way.

I think we can agree that all laws that violate essential liberty are intrinsically stupid.

Let's not examine it too closely, though, lest we uncover that republics may, in fact, be designed to protect the privileges of the land-owning elites from the sheer numbers of the unwashed rabble, and the defense of their essential liberties may only be a beneficial side effect.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#194
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Alcohol is unquestionably the more destructive of substances Because it is the most popular one. The "harm to others" part of the score is not per user. At the margin, one typical heroin or crack consumer creates more costs to society than one typical alcohol consumer.

Is that really the case? I can't think of any reason why a heroin addict would be harmful to others, whereas people who drink alcohol tend to drive and kill/injure others. Indeed, if a heroin addict has clean needles, safe place to inject, and a safe supply of heroin, (close to zero mortality in Vancouver Safe Injection sites) then it's relatively benign substance, other than addictive component. I bet if you put one…

In the very paper that you cited to support your position they claim that the "community", "economic" and "family" harm is about three to five times larger for alcohol than for heroin. Which, given that there are more than two orders of magnitude of difference in the prevalence of alcohol and heroin usage, suggest that somehow heroin users are not as harmless as you paint them. The score for "crime" ("beyond the use-of-drug act") is actually higher for heroin than for alcohol.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#195
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most alcoholic drinks are extremely acquired tastes. Try finding people who haven't drunk much alcohol before adulthood and give them tastes of a selection of beers and wines, and I'd be willing to bet that most would find most of them disgusting. I'm 41, and I still haven't acquired a taste for beer. I find it absolutely awful. I can tolerate most wines, but outside of extremely sweet dessert wines I have never tast…

There's a very similar argument for dark chocolate - most children hate the taste, but as their palettes develop they acquire the taste for it. My parents introduced alcohol to us from a young age so that it was never a rebellious activity in later years - but since we're in the land of anecdotes again, my original opinion still holds: noone has ever argued they take drugs because they enjoy anything other than the m…

[deleted]

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#196
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you disagree but the data really isn't on your side here. I'm not sure why you find it offending. The line between alcohol use and abuse is a very fine one, plenty of people cross it all the time. Many of them end up dead. If you look at all the people who try, say, cannabis, and count who gets addicted and who dies or gets sick from it, then compare those percentages to alcohol, alcohol comes out far, far wors…

Alcohol is not physically addictive in the same way opiates or cocaine is addictive. It's silly to be scared of becoming "addicted" to alcohol. After many years of abuse, alcoholics can get to the point that their bodies dont function properly without some alcohol, but they already have to have a problem for many years to get to that point.

Wow, you're absolutely wrong. Alcohol is one of the few drugs where withdrawal can kill you. That's about as physically addictive as it comes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_tremens

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, curious, what circumstances led to that? The enforcement nowadays seems limited to civil forfeiture, where they would have seized ownership of the house without ever charging the dad, also an egregious act but very different from what happened here? I read that Timothy was selling LSD to a DEA agent so this implies the entire case was federal? Do the feds still act this way in charging the homeowner instead of "m…

I can't find much info on the father but the wikipedia cite for his father going to prison goes to this: > In May of 1992, Tyler sold pot and LSD to a longtime friend who was really a police informant. His father, who was also named Timothy and had a fireworks business in Florida, helped out with the deal and was charged along with his son. ... His father, who had a prior pot charge from 1969, got 10 years, Tyler-Sto…

ah okay, according to that it wasn't completely passive involvement, got it

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#198
> This story is extremely sad, but now seems to be heading towards a happy ending.

Two lives (plus unknown others that they touched on) destroyed, and 20+ years later getting set free - with no acknowledgement of anything wrong with doing that to them in the first place - that fixes everything. /s

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#199
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you disagree but the data really isn't on your side here. I'm not sure why you find it offending. The line between alcohol use and abuse is a very fine one, plenty of people cross it all the time. Many of them end up dead. If you look at all the people who try, say, cannabis, and count who gets addicted and who dies or gets sick from it, then compare those percentages to alcohol, alcohol comes out far, far wors…

Alcohol is not physically addictive in the same way opiates or cocaine is addictive. It's silly to be scared of becoming "addicted" to alcohol. After many years of abuse, alcoholics can get to the point that their bodies dont function properly without some alcohol, but they already have to have a problem for many years to get to that point.

> Alcohol is not physically addictive in the same way opiates or cocaine is addictive.

That's true; of the basic axes by which things are typically labeled "more" or "less" addictive (all of this IIRC) alcohol is high on habituation (which is sometimes not considered "physical", as if any behavior could exist without a physiological bases) and withdrawal, fairly low on tolerance and reverse tolerance. Cocaine has a dangerous combination of featuring tolerance and reverse tolerance, is moderately high on habituation (though perhaps not as strongly habituating as alcohol), and fairly low on withdrawal. Opiates are strongly habituating, feature significant tolerance effects, and have serious withdrawal (on average more severe than alcohol, but, less often fatal by itself than alcohol withdrawal.)

So, alcohol, while definitely physically addictive, and in some respects as much or moreso than cocaine or opiates, is, truly, not physically addictive like cocaine or opiates.

Re: Grateful Dead Fan Timothy Tyler Has Been Granted Clemency

#200
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and Trump, and any major party candidate for the past 75 years. The unfortunate truth is that it's a democracy and the majority of the voting public still supports the drug war. That support in softening, but very slowly.

No.... it's a constitutionally limited democratic republic. That's supposed to prevent "the majority of the voting public" from mandating stupid laws and forcing the minority to live under them. As such, place the blame where it belongs: the majority of Democratic and Republican party politicians, who have employed the drug war as a means to preserve or increase their political power, and to distract and propagandize…

You're correct, but unfortunately there is nothing about personal sovereignty over one's own biochemical processes in the constitution. The constitutional also permits the Federal government to enforce laws on interstate commerce, which effectively allows this kind of prohibition even if the states disagree internally.
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