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Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

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Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#411

Post by QuarterReptile »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #348
shaqbert wrote: post #118

What Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and most other big US company do is the so called "double Irish"[1]. Essentially is a clever way of using two quirks of some EU countries loopholes in tax laws, from treating IP licensing fees (of course the brand and intellectual IP is owned by a British virgin island tax haven, where else could this stuff be created/invented), and the net result is that Apple et al end up payi…

> the result of expert lobbying. You don't need expert lobbying. Look at this forum, full of tax-evasion apologists who conflate pragmatism with pedantry. Pedantry is the one of the most intellectually and emotionally bankrupt moral frameworks. It basically states that if you just think about the rules a lot, then you will find the solution. I mean, obviously all these politicians and normal people, they've just been…

The pedantry you're referring to is also sometimes called "rule of law", and it's more beneficial than the expediency of witch trials. I avoid taxes as much as possible, though I admittedly lack the team of lawyers, and everyone who puts money in retirement accounts is also just avoiding taxes.

I hate Walmart for their ruinous development patterns, but I don't fault them for working within the system they're given. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#412

Post by zepto »

smcl wrote: post #345
zepto wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be advocating that those in positions of power shouldn't have to adhere to the rules. That doesn't usually end up with a better place.

That's obviously not what the parent post meant and you know it

Actually, it's not obvious at all. The parent is suggesting that the EU should not adhere tax law as written and should instead attempt to impose it's morality.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#413

Post by [deleted] »

twblalock wrote: post #399
euyyn wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spirit of said tax law.

It's not possible to determine the spirit of the tax law an objective way: the tax law is actually an accretion of a bunch of laws and amendments, passed decades apart by different people with different intentions, who were influenced by the politics of their time, lobbyists, the state of the economy, the upcoming presidential election, etc. For example, some parts of tax law were passed by politicians who wanted to…

[deleted]

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#414

Post by euyyn »

twblalock wrote: post #399
euyyn wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spirit of said tax law.

It's not possible to determine the spirit of the tax law an objective way: the tax law is actually an accretion of a bunch of laws and amendments, passed decades apart by different people with different intentions, who were influenced by the politics of their time, lobbyists, the state of the economy, the upcoming presidential election, etc. For example, some parts of tax law were passed by politicians who wanted to…

I grant you that it might not be possible in all the cases. But it'd be hard to argue that the double-Dutch sandwich was something any politician ever intended.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#415

Post by kagamine »

Angostura wrote: post #301
kagamine wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2923_en.htm is the link to the EU press release that answers your question. Irish govt. tax deal is in violation of EU tax law and the EU recommend that the Irish govt. seek recompense to the tune of €13bn plus interest .

So, the Irish Government's tax deal with Apple violates EU law. I think that's clear. It's not at all clear as to which party if any was committing fraud.

The fraud part is still only an accusation so far untried by law, but the EU report mentions that:

> The two tax rulings issued by Ireland concerned the internal allocation of these profits within Apple Sales International (rather than the wider set-up of Apple's sales operations in Europe). Specifically, they endorsed a split of the profits for tax purposes in Ireland: Under the agreed method, most profits were internally allocated away from Ireland to a "head office" within Apple Sales International. This "head office" was not based in any country and did not have any employees or own premises. Its activities consisted solely of occasional board meetings. Only a fraction of the profits of Apple Sales International were allocated to its Irish branch and subject to tax in Ireland. The remaining vast majority of profits were allocated to the "head office", where they remained untaxed. ...

Inforgraphic from same link, notice the text to the left in the red box.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/publications/infographics/20...

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#416

Post by eru »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #122
eru wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sell alcohol after all. But fair point. And because the bigger players who can hire expensive accountants can always mask their profits, we shouldn't tax profits. It's too malleable. Hey, even VAT is a better tax.

If you raised VAT even more they would just pass on the cost and make a fuss that it's the governments fault everything is suddenly more expensive. Politically it wouldn't work. If there was a way to globally set the price of a good at one level (iPhone = $400) and then each country could add tax after that so it's clear the company isn't passing the price on to the consumer in various countries with higher sales tax…

There's a whole theory about which taxes economic actors can get away with passing on, and which they have to bear.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence

It's pretty intriguing, and doesn't align very well with our intuition. As far as I can tell, your hypothesis about the impact of VAT is not really supported by that.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#417

Post by notahacker »

eru wrote: post #409
notahacker wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger players then avoid even more tax without the expensive accountants, with the burden falling upon everybody else, not least private companies whose owners are based locally and rely on taxable dividends for a living.

How are they going to evade VAT or a land value tax?

Well, they could own virtually no land in Ireland and buy very few physical assets in Ireland (hang on, that's actually already the case for Apple; shame about anyone brave enough to be actually making stuff in Ireland though)

Put another way, why should Irish businesses and consumers pay increased VAT and a new land tax so that Apple's profits can be tax free?

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#418

Post by jernfrost »

I don't get how the US government can so strongly advocate in favor of Apple in this case. I am a big Apple fan, but clearly the law was broken. This seems like a slam dunk case. And Apple isn't fined, they just have to pay normal low Irish taxes like everybody else.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#419

Post by chupy »

pwinnski wrote: post #259
chupy wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, there was some news that EC has dealt with Amazon, Starbucks, InBev but did they actually pay anything back? Did they appeal? Last I heard for InBev the Belgian Finance minister said: "the consequences for the companies concerned would be considerable and the reimbursement itself would be particularly complex" aka will take forever and we will probably not really do it.

It has taken a number of years for the investigation of Apple to reach this point, and the investigations of Starbucks, Amazon, and InBev are ongoing. I don't believe your "aka" summary is accurate.

The investigation for those three companies mentioned is complete and they have to pay the taxes. Now if they finally will do after years of appeals that's a different question. That was my "aka" summary.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#420

Post by ricksplat »

euyyn wrote: post #414
twblalock wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not possible to determine the spirit of the tax law an objective way: the tax law is actually an accretion of a bunch of laws and amendments, passed decades apart by different people with different intentions, who were influenced by the politics of their time, lobbyists, the state of the economy, the upcoming presidential election, etc. For example, some parts of tax law were passed by politicians who wanted to…

I grant you that it might not be possible in all the cases. But it'd be hard to argue that the double-Dutch sandwich was something any politician ever intended.

Or for which they could ever possibly have a mandate.
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