California bans ITT tech from accepting new students • Hacker News Board

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#281

Post by ryuker16 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:18 PM UTC

gdwatson wrote: post #3

Does anyone have references to more specific accusations against ITT? There are lots of vague claims in the article, but the only semi-specific ones -- misleading students about program quality and pushing them into irresponsible loans -- could just as easily be laid at the feet of public and private nonprofit colleges. I have no particular reason to trust or distrust ITT. But it strikes me as a trade school that pre…

These institutes charge excessively high fees for poor education....and funnel that money into more marketing, lobbying, or investor pockets.

These institutes typically recruit anyone eligible for a government student loan and lobby hard for the ability to recieve them.

When the student fails (common), the school keeps the loan and the student owes the feds. If he graduates, the school still wins becuase they spead very little on education unlike a traditional non-profit.

Its a textbook definition of a con game.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#282

Post by st3v3r » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

SamReidHughes wrote: post #266

st3v3r wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because everyone has that perfect negotiating power to do so. There are no school districts that are struggling or can only afford to pay so much for teachers, and hospitals that can't afford higher salaries for nurses. The "invisible hand" is not what should be guiding society. The "invisible hand" has declared that it's more worthwhile to be a Kardashian than it is to be a teacher or nurse.

> The "invisible hand" has declared that it's more worthwhile to be a Kardashian than it is to be a teacher or nurse. What you propose is to guide society by deliberately lowering the pay of teachers and nurses even more. So are you saying that the invisible hand is right? That a Kardashian should be expensive (which reduces how many are available) and that teachers should be cheap (meaning we can afford more of them…

"What you propose is to guide society by deliberately lowering the pay of teachers and nurses "

No, I'm not. So your response has lost all credibility right there.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#283

Post by ryuker16 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:23 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #46

imh wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gist is that they let anyone in (and advertise heavily to try to let everyone in), regardless of their ability. They also charge exorbitant amounts that students can only pay because of their government loans. That might sound a little like the general complaints about college, except that they don't really offer anything in the way of actual education, and the costs are really high, even for U.S. colleges. So wh…

Do they really provide nothing resembling education? I once had a friend of a friend ask me for some CSS help for some assignment, later I found out it was for some University of Phoenix course. Ideally the instructor would have taught the principles of CSS so that my assistance wasn't needed, but instructors not teaching the fundamentals and letting students figure it out somehow (or muddling through without ever le…

Class quality varies greatly by program but they are notorious for recruiting people who can barely read or will pass since the real goal is aquiring their hefty federal student loan allowance.

So either classes are dumbed down so they can eventually graduate or fail many leaving them with a gigantic loan amount(most schools try to max this out) and no education cert.

Also, they tend to pay fairly low for teacher faculty while having little prestige or oversight: quality is unlikely in this environment.

However they have top notch recruiting and sale teams.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#284

Post by taternuts » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:27 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #205

One of the things that's very interesting to me is how information asymmetry helps drive people to these kinds of companies. I don't know everybody's story, but when I was just out of high school, there was no chance (I believed at the time) that I'd be able to go to a traditional school. I had bad grades, my family was poor and nobody in my family had gone to university except for my father, who had quickly abandone…

I've known several people who successfully went the Community College route. It's a GREAT way to get started, in most cases you'll actually learn something, and it's comparatively cheap.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#285

Post by ryuker16 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:30 PM UTC

duncan_bayne wrote: post #181

colechristensen wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all universities public and private in the US are 501(3)(c) nonprofit organizations. (Some public ones are more or less an extension of the government and don't count) For-profit universities ... aren't. They're owned and operated by for-profit companies, the accreditation is usually terrible and in no way comparable to other universities, and they deceive students into thinking they'll be getting something si…

So, this seems to me like a problem that is almost perfectly amenable to market solutions. University has poor standards? Don't hire their graduates, or at least, don't weight their qualifications as heavily. I don't understand why you think Government action - that is, force - is necessary here. Or is it that you think they are defrauding their students by calling themselves Universities?

Most companies and hilariously the owners have a policy to not hire these graduates.

These schools have high pressure sale teams who target the bottom of the barrel or the clueless leaving the tax payer on the hook for defaulted loans.

Its no different than scammers who target the elderly or children with false claims.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#286

Post by ryuker16 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:33 PM UTC

duncan_bayne wrote: post #278

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are defrauding their students by calling themselves Universities Yes, that is what I think

Okay, if that's the case, then taking them to court for fraud and stripping them of their accreditation would indeed be reasonable.

They usually form a fake accredation system owned by a private entity recognized by no one but themselves in the same corporate umbrella.

As to why theyre ellegible for student loans (unlike most code bootcamps)....excessive lobbying.

Hence why their credits rarely transfer to other schools.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#287

Post by ryuker16 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:39 PM UTC

duncan_bayne wrote: post #182

dagw wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I guess I should have said reputable accreditation. From ACICS's Wikipedia page: "the U.S. Department of Education formally recommended that the accreditor's recognition be withdrawn. (June 15th 2016)" So I guess they won't be accredited for long.

.... so what's the problem? Serious question. Seems like things are working as they should.

Its actually pretty common for legit training programs with decent acredation to get bought out by these shady operators and then run the school at lower standards.

I once looked at art Institute and each campus location varied greatly in accreditation.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#288

Post by Klinky » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:39 PM UTC

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #166

Klinky wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would they do that or just become more aggressive at debt collection?

Maybe? But I'm not sure what good it'll do them. When someone can't get a job they're not exactly going to be paying back debt faster, even if they wanted to. I can't see how them being more aggressive could really help the situation much if at all.

If most of their income is from guaranteed loans, then they are likely considerably less aggressive right now than they could be. Debt collection can also lead to wage garnishments. Never underestimate the desire to extract as much blood from a turnip as possible.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#289

Post by ryuker16 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:41 PM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #92

"Last year, it enrolled 45,000 students and reported $850 million in revenue". That's about $19k/year/student. Just to put that in perspective, a 10 day Cisco Network Engineering course from Unitek in the Bay area (last time I took one, great school, at least in network engineering) costs $8,200. The issue isn't the cost, honestly, $19k/year isn't that expensive, the issue is whether they are delivering value for mon…

Those courses are paid by your company as training or to accqure some cert to obtain a contract.....its not priced accurately nor intended for guys on the street.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#290

Post by ryuker16 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 8:45 PM UTC

ben_jones wrote: post #106

joshmn wrote: post #98

Are they preying on desperate students, or people who are considered "unfavorable" to learning otherwise? I know a few people who considered ITT. They all have one thing alike: they're not the smartest or most driven of people by any means. (that's two, sorry) I'm curious... What are their student's standardized test scores, as well as high school records? I'm sure there's a pattern there that can describe some their…

Companies like ITT specifically target military service members because they are: 1) In their twenties and looking to start a career outside the military. 2) Eligible for a variety of loans, grants, and other financial services unavailable to the general public. 3) If they are still in the military, they will have much lower default rates as the military takes debt very seriously (as a representation of character rea…

Another huge factor is that laws aimed at these schools required a threshold of students didnt use federal student loans to attend.

Army loans qualified are sufficiently different and allowed them meet that quota without having to go the filthy route giving hefty scholarships to attract non-suckers at reasonable rates.