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A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

nytimes.com

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Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#121

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #118
dleslie wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did touch it; I stated that it doesn't matter what the international community things. "Foo did something wrong." "Bar did the wrong thing as well." "So what, Quz, Qid and Qaz agree that Foo did something wrong." It doesn't matter what Quz, Qid and Qaz think. Plurality does not justify propaganda.

Let me put the simple point like this: Every country do something wrong. To go from "no country is perfect" to "all countries are equally bad" is Putin's propaganda position -- and the whole democratic world disagrees with your and Putin on this .

It's not a competition; there is no objective yardstick by which to measure which country is worse. Both do wrong, and none can objectively say whether one does more wrong than the other.

What we can do is call a spade a spade whenever we see one.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#122

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #114
dleslie wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did touch it; I stated that it doesn't matter what the international community things. "Foo did something wrong." "Bar did the wrong thing as well." "So what, Quz, Qid and Qaz agree that Foo did something wrong." It doesn't matter what Quz, Qid and Qaz think. Plurality does not justify propaganda.

I have not talked about the "international community", I talked about that the democratic countries agree, regarding Putin's propaganda. Elegant rewrite, by the way. And so on.

You said Western Democracies agree; and I asked why not All Democracies, and stated that it doesn't matter who agrees.

But I wonder, why do you reject non-Western Democracies?

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#123

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #115
dleslie wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My assessment of the USA as being an Oligarchy is in good company[0]; feel free to google further. 0: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FPPS%2FPPS...

Still not touching my point: it is not NY Times/CIA claims vs Putin's propaganda. It is claims by the democratic world vs Putin's paid propaganda.

I responded to that several times. It does not matter who agrees with whom about their allegations of another's wrong doing when that is not questioned.

"Russia makes Propaganda."

"That's ironic for them to say, as you're complicit in making American Propaganda."

"These countries agree that Russia makes propaganda."

"Russia makes propaganda. So does America."

And so on.

Hell, America makes propaganda wholesale with its military advisors program and huge logistic and financial support of Hollywood.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#124

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #121
berntb wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me put the simple point like this: Every country do something wrong. To go from "no country is perfect" to "all countries are equally bad" is Putin's propaganda position -- and the whole democratic world disagrees with your and Putin on this .

It's not a competition; there is no objective yardstick by which to measure which country is worse. Both do wrong, and none can objectively say whether one does more wrong than the other. What we can do is call a spade a spade whenever we see one.

>> there is no objective yardstick by which to measure which country is worse.

That can't be intellectually honest.

There are lots of metrics. E.g. human rights compliance, press freedom, number of murdered journalists in the country/year, freedom indexes and so on.

Bye.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#125

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #123
berntb wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still not touching my point: it is not NY Times/CIA claims vs Putin's propaganda. It is claims by the democratic world vs Putin's paid propaganda.

I responded to that several times. It does not matter who agrees with whom about their allegations of another's wrong doing when that is not questioned. "Russia makes Propaganda." "That's ironic for them to say, as you're complicit in making American Propaganda." "These countries agree that Russia makes propaganda." "Russia makes propaganda. So does America." And so on. Hell, America makes propaganda wholesale with i…

You started by agreeing that there were different levels of gray, now you really argue the same position as Putin's propaganda -- there is no real difference between the democracies and the dictators.

Without doing any real discussion of all the liberty indexes and freedom of press etc...

OK, enough. Bye.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#126

Post by gspetr »

dmytrish wrote: post #65
gfosco wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same shit is happening here. Massive distortion of reality and epic-level propaganda on US media. We need to always be skeptical of the pushed narrative.

I can't judge that by myself, but my external impression that if there is such thing as Western propaganda, it must be incredibly subtle and seamless, omnipotent and omnipresent to be real. Russian propaganda is not a thing you are not aware of as a Russian, it's just that it gets you emotional and grows a self-protection from external believes. Many Russian medias start to claim "look at the others, they are not bet…

Sometimes the seams are obvious:

https://pics.onsizzle.com/headlines-think-the-media-got-the-...

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#127

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #124
dleslie wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a competition; there is no objective yardstick by which to measure which country is worse. Both do wrong, and none can objectively say whether one does more wrong than the other. What we can do is call a spade a spade whenever we see one.

>> there is no objective yardstick by which to measure which country is worse. That can't be intellectually honest. There are lots of metrics. E.g. human rights compliance, press freedom, number of murdered journalists in the country/year, freedom indexes and so on. Bye.

There is no objective yardstick because the ethical conditions are subjective. For instance, in this very thread it is evident that agreement cannot be found upon whether or not cooperating with Government agencies on messaging is an unethical journalistic practice[0].

There are many metrics, but very few of them are objective; that doesn't mean that those which are not objective are not meaningful, but it means that finding agreement is likely impossible.

To be clear: I do not believe that Russia is in the right, in terms of their concealed use of propaganda. That does not mean I must hold my nose and accept that the Americans engage in clandestine propaganda in collusion with private media.

0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12379153

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#128

Post by dleslie »

berntb wrote: post #125
dleslie wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I responded to that several times. It does not matter who agrees with whom about their allegations of another's wrong doing when that is not questioned. "Russia makes Propaganda." "That's ironic for them to say, as you're complicit in making American Propaganda." "These countries agree that Russia makes propaganda." "Russia makes propaganda. So does America." And so on. Hell, America makes propaganda wholesale with i…

You started by agreeing that there were different levels of gray, now you really argue the same position as Putin's propaganda -- there is no real difference between the democracies and the dictators. Without doing any real discussion of all the liberty indexes and freedom of press etc... OK, enough. Bye.

I'm not claiming that there's no real difference; I'm claiming that it doesn't matter who agrees that Russia engages in propaganda. That doesn't change that America does as well.

Is Russia or America worse? I don't care which is worse, that doesn't matter. They both do wrong things.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#129

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #127
berntb wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> there is no objective yardstick by which to measure which country is worse. That can't be intellectually honest. There are lots of metrics. E.g. human rights compliance, press freedom, number of murdered journalists in the country/year, freedom indexes and so on. Bye.

There is no objective yardstick because the ethical conditions are subjective. For instance, in this very thread it is evident that agreement cannot be found upon whether or not cooperating with Government agencies on messaging is an unethical journalistic practice[0]. There are many metrics, but very few of them are objective; that doesn't mean that those which are not objective are not meaningful, but it means that…

>> There is no objective yardstick because the ethical conditions are subjective.

So the yardsticks measuring differences between dictatorships and dictators are relative..?

THAT is an uncommon claim these days -- it was common before 1989, from communists supporting Soviet.

And then you ignored my examples:

  - Human rights
  - State control of media
  - Personal freedom indexes
  - Risks for critical journalists to be murdered
This is just funny.

Re: A Powerful Russian Weapon: The Spread of False Stories

#130

Post by berntb »

dleslie wrote: post #122
berntb wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have not talked about the "international community", I talked about that the democratic countries agree, regarding Putin's propaganda. Elegant rewrite, by the way. And so on.

You said Western Democracies agree; and I asked why not All Democracies, and stated that it doesn't matter who agrees. But I wonder, why do you reject non-Western Democracies?

Why do you care?

You claim -- just like Putin's employees -- that there are no real differences between dictatorships and democracies anyway.

And you won't touch if human rights, freedom, media freedom and so on are irrelevant... (The academic measurements of them are part of the conspiracy against Russia?)

Edit: Enough. I'm not going to get my account banned over a 350 karma troll. Bait away, making more weird claims. :-)

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