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Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

rte.ie

271–280 of 436 posts

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#271
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lower taxes for specific companies is the issue though, not lower tax rates across the board.

Two questions: 1. How do they target these companies? 2. Is this the issue then? If it was for all the companies, with no exceptions, would that be allowed? I'm seriously asking in the hope to get a better understanding, because right now, the way I see it is: As long as they are not breaking any laws, it's their "right" to use any loophole there is, to minimize their taxes (or maximize their profit, depends how you…

It is Ireland's "right" to tax companies however they want, just as it's the company's "right" to configure itself to minimize it's tax exposure.

Both of these are entirely ethical.

The EU sees dollar signs for its budgets when it imagines how to charge Apple a few billion in fees. Simple as that.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#272
post #178

I only wish that countries would compete for people the same way they compete for businesses. If they were to provide the best services, quality of life, in exchange for the lowest income taxes. That way people would move there and companies would follow. Wishful thinking?

While I am in favour of such a scheme in principle, it would mean that 95% of Africa and large parts of Asia would move to Europe, which would cause big problems.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#273
post #37
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.

What actually happened between IE and AAPL is on the verge of extortion and bribery - the only difference is not on personal level but on Gov vs Bus. We should heavily penalise this, as AAPL literally stole money from both US and EU people. Because of this arrangement: Apple paid less taxes in US, hence US people have worse roads, healthcare etc. To the same in EU (but here by bad IE decision). Money taken is on AAPL…

> We should heavily penalise this, as AAPL literally stole money from both US and EU people.

Apple's mechanism of theft: Create products that people want so badly they give Apple their money in exchange for products and services from Apple.

Don't conflate the US Government and the US People. The US people don't benefit from money given to the government.

Please see: Wars, bank bailouts, and "regulatory capture".

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things to keep in mind: * Tax laws are (not theoretically) changed retroactively, i.e. even if no taxes were due at the time of filling, that may change. * Law interpretation and/or leading acts may change (again retroactively), i.e. taxable amount, various exemptions, etc.. Some countries may pat you on the back for finding loopholes in the law while other may simply order one to pay hopefully without…

It is well understood that retroactive changes to the law are one of the worst things a legal system can do, which is why so many constitutions ban it and why other countries (like the UK) have a strong convention not to do it. The US Constitution bans them explicitly. Yes, of course countries routinely do bad things and ignore convention and constitutional principles, but that doesn't make it suddenly OK. The low ra…

The corporation tax rate in Ireland is 12.5%, and the rate applied to Apple was (eventually) 0.005%: it's the delta between Irish own tax rate and the one applied to Apple that is deemed illegal according to this EU ruling.

If Ireland want a 0% tax rate for all corporations, as far as I know they are allowed to do it. They just cannot afford it.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#275
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies make deals with governments __all the time__ for tax breaks and government subsidies. Governments want jobs and investment, companies want the best deals they can get. This is NOT extortion or bribery, just everyday business. It happens every single day even between US states, not to mention nation-states. Business is competitive and that's a good thing. AAPL in this case has deferred taxes on profits with…

How can governments "make deals" with individual companies? Aren't governments making laws and the laws apply to everyone? Giving a tax break to some specific kind of company (e.g plumbers or taxi companies) sounds dubious but doable. To my ears this just sounds like the Irish government tried to "make a good deal" with Apple, but the law doesn't allow it. Which sounds obvious. It feels like a clash of company and go…

Laws apply to everyone, but are selectively enforced. This is why this story is about Apple, and not some no-name mom-and-pop shop that is in equal violation of the law.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#276

In 2014 Apple's effective tax rate was 0.005%. That is 5 cents for every $1000 in profits. Even a patent troll could do better than Ireland...

Why this blatant falsification of facts? In 2014, Apple's earnings before interest and taxes was $53,483,000 and the income tax expense was $13,973,000. That's 26.12% effective tax rate. All data from Yahoo! Finance: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL . It's a similar tax rate in other years too.

> At the centre of the Apple controversy are two of the company’s subsidiaries, Apple Operations Europe and Apple Sales International.

Find me those numbers, not those of the US parent company Apple, and you have an argument.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#277
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's not entirely correct. These norms were introduced to open up nationalised markets like telecoms, mail etc, which would otherwise remain forever locked on national boundaries. This allowed an equal field for businesses across the Union. Of course, established markets tend to favor the richest players. Well it sure helped Deutsche Telecom and PostNL(TNT), everyone else is mostly still locked within their own co…

Dude, can I politely ask you to increase the amount of commas and periods you use? Otherwise you're really hard to follow :) > everyone else is mostly still locked within their own countries That's not really the case. In fact, in a lot of sectors purely-national players are now the exception, not the rule. You have Portuguese building companies winning UK contracts, and French companies outsourcing to Czech companie…

>Dude, can I politely ask you to increase the amount of commas and periods you use? Otherwise you're really hard to follow :)

My english teacher flashback: Long sentence -3 pt.

>That's not really the case. In fact, in a lot of sectors purely-national players are now the exception, not the rule. You have Portuguese building companies winning UK contracts, and French companies outsourcing to Czech companies. All that wouldn't be possible if richer countries could just lock down their markets with state subsidies. In fact, the only market where this does not happen is agriculture, which is heavily regulated and planned at the EU level.

I think we were talking about slightly different things, you have more Chinese construction companies winning contracts in the UK than portuguese I was talking about the competitiveness of specific traditionally "national" companies in the grander EU scheme and this is set pretty darn poorly against the smaller countries, Ireland big problem is that it's small (>You keep reasoning on national terms, whereas the point of the EU is to overcome those terms.

Well problem is that it isn't the EU is explicitly "anti-federation" at least on paper, if the EU was structured like the US it would be a considerably more fairer place but the nation states within it are sticking to their national terms, borders, and sovereignty I only attempt represents the reality not an ideal some might hold.

> The German taxpayer isn't really picking up the bill; The numbers respectfully disagree: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start

I thought that we were talking about the Euro Debt crisis which went pretty bad as far as the Irish taxpayer goes and pretty good for the German one.

But if this is pan-EU economics then while Germany does pay more it also receives more.

2007-2013 Germany's net contribution was negative meaning it got more money than it paid out (same goes for all the other big contributors into the EU).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union#E...

Yes, Germany and the rest of the large economies do pay out more, but they also get considerably more and while we can all find a few years in which they are paying considerably more than they are getting if you look at the overall figures it's more or less a zero sum game, and if you look at economic crisis periods it tends to be negative.

The smaller EU member states on the other hand have positive net contribution to the EU, they can't afford not to have that, they don't have the political capital for that and the EU laws and regulations are not set up in their favor.

>Not just to Ireland, to anyone. Which is really the main problem with the Euro, to be honest. There are solutions, but they need a coordinated effort by Eurozone countries to overcome German diffidence towards potentially weakening the currency. This effort is slowly building, now that France and Italy have nothing left to lose.

Aye this is a pretty big issue, Germany treats the Euro like it was the Dutchmark (I don't fault them for that ;)) as they are the "biggest" economy in the EU (by a substantial margin) and if we are talking old-school industry only that margin is probably even bigger they are very keen on keeping their production surplus and they are doing everything they can to make sure that still is the case.

Germany is at a pretty tough spot since they are the factory of Europe and their economy is still set up around its Industry (they are post WW2 50's America).

The services sector is nearly 80% of the economy of the next 2 largest economies in the EU - France and the UK, while their industry share is 20% or lower (UK 20.4%, France 18.3%).

Unlike the UK, France and even the US (20.8%) Germany's industry is 30% of its GDP it produces tangible goods at a high surplus, this means that much more of its GDP isn't not only tied to the purchasing powers of its trading partners but is also considerably less "flexible" than a services oriented economy and Germany would resist any major financial policy changes with very very fierce opposition.

Simply because it's easier and quicker to shift the focus of retail jobs or even retrain them than it is to figure out what to do now with an automotive factory and the 30,000 people it employed.

>Well, it's what everyone wants, isn't it? :)

The cake is a lie ;)

>FED heads are also not elected but rather nominated; and historically they are pretty independent as well. Politically, the ECB is under a similar amount of pressure; the Governing Board is nominated by the European Council, aka national governments, and include representatives from all countries; on top of that sits a restricted Executive team which traditionally includes at least one German, one French and one Italian, recognising the larger role of their economies.

Yes but any US state will have more political pull over the the Federal government or any of its institutions (even tho the Fed is technically a separate entity but the head of the Fed is appointed by the President) than nearly any EU member state has within the EU parliament, EC, and various other institutions.

If Janet Yellen would say to Alabama what the ECB said to Ireland or Greece, the Congress would be up in arms calling for impeachment and she would be without a job before sundown, it seems that while the EU is very paranoid about national sovereignty it doesn't really act to protect it(mainly because it's structured against it, the EUP is very "anti-national" for the most part and is also hardly representative of the actual elected governments of the various member states, and the EC and other institutions that their members are appointed by the governments of the member states have different responsibilities and agendas).

>Absolutely. Fiscal harmonisation is the next step on that path, and this decision is coherent with that endgame.

Fiscal harmonisation is a "big no-no" most EU states do not want federalization they want to keep their national identity and sovereignty at least in this point in time. This decision isn't really coherent with this, it's strong arming without the reach around and with no cuddles.

>Neither of those has unfettered access to the largest market on the planet. I should have probably qualified my previous statement with something like "in the EU".

Nowhere was it stated that it was, but it doesn't makes English the reason why Ireland is preferable to Germany, if English was an issue they would import Irish to Germany if it wasn't more lucrative for them to set up shop in Ireland.

>You're selling Ireland short, here. Tax is one element of policy, but not the only one. I'm pretty sure US companies would rather work with Irish unions than German ones, for example. Germany is also another hour away in timezone terms, two hours in flight terms, and more uncomfortable to access by sea. And of course, everyone suffers from competition from up-and-coming countries in the same way.

Taxes are only one aspect of the incentives Apple and the likes received in Ireland and that's the problem, if Ireland was setup as a tax haven like Luxembourg the EU wouldn't give a damn, but it set up specific preferential policies that didn't make Apple want to setup a shell holding company in Ireland they made Apple want to put 30% of it's employees in Ireland.

And I'm not selling Ireland short, it's an island with 5M people with a tiny local market an underdeveloped industrial and services sectors with all the logistical issues of being an island including having higher consumer prices than Germany.

And I don't understand what does naval access have to do with this argument, Ireland didn't went after MERSC, ZIM, GE or Shell, it went after the likes of Apple, Facebook, Google and Microsoft.

But even then last time I've checked the largest port in Europe and one of the largest in the world is in Rotterdam which is pretty well connected to Germany.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh they were. it's actually quite clear: if you exempt some corp from taxes you are paying them the exempted sum compared to another business not receiving the exemption. In my opinion it is highly unethical to construct such financial mechanisms with the only aim to reduce tax payments.

Not taxing someone is not the same as paying them! By that logic I am paid by the government every time I listen to Simply Red without them taxing me for the privilege? Why am I not rich then? Damn me, the linguistic backflips in this thread are amazing. Tax is the taking of something . Low taxes mean you take less , not that you are generously paying people!

>...compared to another business not receiving the exemption.

Are you intentionally ignoring this line?

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#280
post #245
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't reply to Zigzag, so I do it here: It's not about lower taxes in general, it is about lower taxes for a single specific company. And that constitutes state aid which is (mostly) forbidden under EU rules, as it is massively uncompetetive.

You make it sound legally straight forward, but I can't see how this constitutes state-aid; the double-Irish and dutch-sandwich were/are completely legal tax-avoidance schemes, for instance. Apple isn't headquartered in Ireland, Apple Sales International and Apple Operations Europe are. The EU says these subsidiaries have been making untaxed profits, but it's not obvious that they've made any profits, ever (that's th…

> the double-Irish and dutch-sandwich were/are completely legal tax-avoidance schemes, for instance

Are they completely legal or is this just a case of they are legal, until a court finds that they actually aren't legal.

Even if they are legal, I would argue that convoluted schemes to avoid paying taxes is unethical in the same way that moving manufacturing to a place with lax environmental or labor laws in unethical. Apple might be able to make phones with what is effectively slave labor legally, but they shouldn't.

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