California bans ITT tech from accepting new students • Hacker News Board

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#211

Post by cloakandswagger » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:17 PM UTC

euyyn wrote: post #129

tn13 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this. The problem here is with the government instead of ITT in my opinion. If you are lending money to someone who is taking significantly more risk it is your fault if the person fails to pay it back and not of the consumer or the business selling the service. In fact it makes sense for the government to do better credit risk analysis for every college-course-student instead of providing loans for any student,…

Well, that's exactly what the Federal government did. "If you want a student loan, you can't enroll in ITT, as it's too high risk".

That's what the government of the state of California did, not the Federal government.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#212

Post by forgetsusername » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:19 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #123

selectodude wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because student loans are guaranteed by the federal government. Student can default and the bank will still get their money.

> Student can default Um no. They can't. That's the problem with American student loans. It's the only contract you can enter into under 18 and you can never declare bankruptcy on them. It's the most bullshit type of loan there is. In grad school I put part of my car on Student Loans because it was 0%. My car load was 5.2%. After I graduated, my student loans shot up to 6.8%! I quickly dumped all my savings onto them…

>It's the only contract you can enter into under 18 and you can never declare bankruptcy on them. It's the most bullshit type of loan there is.

Students are offering up zero collateral and usually have minimal credit history for a loan in the tens of thousands of dollars. For better or worse, if students could default on their student loans, fewer banks could/would make those loans.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#213

Post by cgearhart » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

cloakandswagger wrote: post #143

iamdave wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll entertain the notion, because I have questions and reservations of my own (powered by certain built-in and historical baisies as an American...infer if you will): What would the criteria be to determine loan eligibility for a student fresh out of high school?

GPA, extra curricular activity, criminal record, intended major, savings, jobs worked and the duration they were held, etc. Of course, none of this is as accurate an indicator as a FICO score which is why student loans are federally guaranteed, otherwise who would offer them? All of this goes to underscore just how destructive the "college for everyone" concept is. The government is making junk loans so that naive yo…

> colleges have transformed into bloated profit machines, happily ratcheting up tuition in response to this inflated demand

Colleges aren't really "profit machines" though, and growth in tuition hasn't paced enrollment increases, so it is more likely that aid levels are being increased in response to rising tuition, rather than tuition being raised due to increased aid. Interestingly, one of the dominant factors in the growth of personnel costs for colleges is healthcare for employees.

Between 1975-2004, enrollment increased by 65% in four-year colleges while cost increased by almost 200% over the same period. [1][2] It's not really a demand-driven phenomenon because colleges have capacity to support the number of students attending, so the marginal cost of accepting additional students is low. The more likely cause is that loans (private or public) turn students into consumers, forcing colleges to compete with each other to attract paying customers. Look at the facilities and amenities provided at German universities (which are 100% publicly funded) compared to public universities in the US. We spend tremendous amounts of money for health centers, gyms, sports, clubs, etc., that require increased spending on construction and administrative support staff. [3]

[1] http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_302.60.as...

[2] https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tabl...

[3] http://www.demos.org/publication/pulling-higher-ed-ladder-my...

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#214

Post by holtalanm » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:28 PM UTC

gremlinsinc wrote: post #61

jmcgough wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, these are problems that are present for some other schools, but ITT Tech is far worse. For-profit schools aren't even in the same ballpark as other types of schools, in terms of the default rate. These are businesses where the "admissions counselors" are salespeople who are told to lie to people and strongarm them into attending, taking out massive government loans and effectively stealing money from the federal…

why not allow them to operate instead of force them out--make them pay for all defaulted loans above 8% -- that might make them work harder to get their students gainfully employed so they can cover their loans. -- not that I like ITT, I abhor them, and think that Bootcamps are WAY better in terms of quality education and quality of job prospects.

I wouldn't go as far as saying bootcamps are better.

My experience with Bootcamp grads has been pretty lackluster to say the least. They get taught the absolute basics with a "guarantee" for employment after, but not many tech companies will take someone with no education, no experience, and only a light grasp on the basics of programming.

My town has been getting a lot of Bootcamp grads lately applying for jobs in the tech sector. According to a friend, his company interviewed a bunch of them and didn't find any of them met their requirements in the least.

My opinion of bootcamps is that they are little better than something like ITT. High cost, very little reward. You'd be better off teaching yourself.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#215

Post by SamReidHughes » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:29 PM UTC

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #163

fennecfoxen wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is in part because the federal government has decided that student loans from private banks were too expensive and so the government themselves should offer them cheaper, for great justice. As such, the private student-loan sector in the US is no longer a going concern, and no student loans accurately price risk - a neat little wealth transfer to buy votes from students. It's also a scary credit bubble; apparent…

Can you point out a country where a private student-loan sector is working well? One thing the government does that the private sector won't is prioritise the needs of society over financial results. Say, for instance, that "teachers" and "nurses" were underperforming groups of student-loan takers. Private sector would say "OK, stricter controls on student-loans for those!" Meanwhile the government would say "OK, but…

If we need these people in society, let their salaries increase. There is no reason to prefer debt ridden graduates paying higher interest rates at lower salaries with government soaking up the cost of defaults to the benefit of employers and their direct customers.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#216

Post by wtbob » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:30 PM UTC

douche wrote: post #184

roel_v wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is to CS what telescopes are to astronomy. I understand that this is not obvious to an 18 year old outsider, so in that sense you may have been misled by an admissions counsellor who probably didn't understand it either, but no - studying CS won't make you a software engineer by itself. At all.

Unfortunately, in most cases, it's the option you have. An actual software engineering degree concentration would be better for what most people actually want, but it's a rarity. You'd have to entice professors with industry experience (who are good enough to know what they are supposed to teach), and you aren't doing that on typical faculty pay scales.

> An actual software engineering degree concentration would be better for what most people actually want, but it's a rarity.

Part of the problem, IMNSHO, is that we have widespread disagreement with the profession of software 'engineering' (such as it is) about what is mandatory, what is excellent, what is good, what is minimally acceptable and what is intolerable. We even see that what some people think is mandatory others think is intolerable, and vice-versa.

I don't know that we'll be able to have an actual proper software engineering profession for at least another two decades, but honestly closer to a century.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#217

Post by coredog64 » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:46 PM UTC

culturestate wrote: post #145

djsumdog wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Student can default Um no. They can't. That's the problem with American student loans. It's the only contract you can enter into under 18 and you can never declare bankruptcy on them. It's the most bullshit type of loan there is. In grad school I put part of my car on Student Loans because it was 0%. My car load was 5.2%. After I graduated, my student loans shot up to 6.8%! I quickly dumped all my savings onto them…

By "default," GP means simply not paying - not bankruptcy. If someone can't afford to pay their student loans, they probably don't have assets in excess of their debt anyway.

I'm not going to claim it is an epidemic, but I know a few people in this boat. Generally speaking they are able to get by with a few life hacks: Cohabitate rather than marry, work jobs under the table, and/or be the stay-at-home parent.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#218

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:47 PM UTC

cloakandswagger wrote: post #211

euyyn wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's exactly what the Federal government did. "If you want a student loan, you can't enroll in ITT, as it's too high risk".

That's what the government of the state of California did, not the Federal government.

The federal government banned new students with federal financial aid from enrolling in any ITT program or campus.

Then, the California state government banned all new student enrollment at ITT campuses in California.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#219

Post by pault » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:48 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #205

One of the things that's very interesting to me is how information asymmetry helps drive people to these kinds of companies. I don't know everybody's story, but when I was just out of high school, there was no chance (I believed at the time) that I'd be able to go to a traditional school. I had bad grades, my family was poor and nobody in my family had gone to university except for my father, who had quickly abandone…

Was it the Art Institutes International? My mother taught typography and design there and I could tell you some stories! It, and schools like it, are very intentionally set up as funnels for government school loan programs. There were some good teachers there that did their best, but the corporate side was a pit of snakes. The labs were all outfitted with 5 year old technology, the teachers were paid peanuts, but every year the recruiter with the most sales got an all expenses paid two week vacation at a five star tropical resort. If you want to see the effects of the education bubble, take a look at for-profit trade schools.

Re: California bans ITT tech from accepting new students

#220

Post by ensignavenger » Tue, Aug 30, 2016, 1:50 PM UTC

cloakandswagger wrote: post #143

iamdave wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll entertain the notion, because I have questions and reservations of my own (powered by certain built-in and historical baisies as an American...infer if you will): What would the criteria be to determine loan eligibility for a student fresh out of high school?

GPA, extra curricular activity, criminal record, intended major, savings, jobs worked and the duration they were held, etc. Of course, none of this is as accurate an indicator as a FICO score which is why student loans are federally guaranteed, otherwise who would offer them? All of this goes to underscore just how destructive the "college for everyone" concept is. The government is making junk loans so that naive yo…

Any data on how good FICO scores are at predicting default rates? In my limited experience, my own credit report is rarely accurate... and from what I understand, that is quite common. So I wonder how a score calculated on inaccurate information could possibly be a great indicator of default rates?