If both Apple and Ireland are opposed to this I see little chance Apple actually pays this. Ireland's government obviously setup this tax structure intentionally to bring capital into Ireland and will want to preserve this.
Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
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Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#152What Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and most other big US company do is the so called "double Irish"[1]. Essentially is a clever way of using two quirks of some EU countries loopholes in tax laws, from treating IP licensing fees (of course the brand and intellectual IP is owned by a British virgin island tax haven, where else could this stuff be created/invented), and the net result is that Apple et al end up payi…
>And with another quirk - this time in US tax laws - the do not even have to pay taxed in the US on those earnings, as they have not repatriated the funds. This is not a 'quirk' as you think. No country in the world, other than the US, tax their corporations on already taxed profits in a different jurisdiction. This actually ends up hurting the US because corporations cannot repatriate already-taxed funds without bei…
The US tax code is a huge mess, agreed. But you gotta pay your dues (aka taxes) somewhere, and here Apple et al goes essentially Scot free. That is not cool.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#153Good. Read how Tim Cook publicly considers Nobel economist Joeseph Stiglitz as a one who do not know what he (Stiglitz) is talking about. Eye opening. Excerpts from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/wp/2016/08/13/2016... Q: What do you say in response to Nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz’s comments on Bloomberg [television], where he called Apple’s profit reporting in Ireland a “fraud”? Tim Cooks answer: I did…
Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.
> In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.
Would you also tax virtual property? I guess that would be things like domain names.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#154"...The findings are a result of the culmination of a three-year investigation by Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager into tax arrangements for Apple, dating back 25 years..."
I have no love in my heart for Apple.
At the same time, it's not like they don't have enough lawyers. So I have to assume that anything involving billions of dollars would be strenuously vetted. I might be wrong, but I'm starting from there.
And if they were supposed to pay taxes, they were supposed to pay them. Purposefully evading taxes is wrong. Avoiding taxes is another matter. Complex tax codes to change society work because we assume that people will be actively avoiding them. So good for them. They're playing the carrot and stick game that governments like us all to play.
If true, this means that they did the right thing that the best-informed legal minds could offer in order to legally avoid taxes. It worked for a while then suddenly the rules changed. And they changed not just for the future, but retroactively.
What occurred to cause a rules change? It wasn't the law. It wasn't Apple's behavior. It became a story in the U.S. about how companies are getting away without paying their "fair share". The EC was the one that acted, and the only thing that makes sense to me is that the EC saw an opportunity and appointed a commission. Not arbitration, not a criminal or civil trial. A commission.
Quite frankly, this looks like a stick-up. Apple's a big company and can take care of itself. I really hope that the same kind of thing doesn't happen to mid-sized and smaller companies trying to eek it out in the EU. It's not just bad for the companies involved: it's bad for the reputation of the union as a whole. You can't keep changing the rules up if you're trying to tweak regulatory issues to promote long-term growth. Nobody with any sense is going to trust you.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why? 0% tax on profits would seem fair and reasonable. (There's lots of stuff that's not taxed. Eg not a lot of people complain about not taxing capital gains of home owner/occupiers.)
0% tax on profits would be fair for whom? Definitely not the citizen.
It would be fine if you moved the tax to dividends and capital gains.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#156Given the stakes, unclear to me why multinationals don't find a way to create there own country, that would be free of any non-member decent.
Because other nations wouldn't recognise it.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#157Apple engage(ds) in aggressive tax planning - and they, along with FBK, Google, etc - deserve to be smacked down with a heavy bill. An effective tax rate of 0.005% - when your next door business neighbour is paying 20% - is morally wrong and damaging to society and the common good.
Morals are irrelevant in this story.
Tax law is a system of rules. There should be no second arbitrary standard people (and companies) should be expected to follow.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#158Good. Read how Tim Cook publicly considers Nobel economist Joeseph Stiglitz as a one who do not know what he (Stiglitz) is talking about. Eye opening. Excerpts from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/wp/2016/08/13/2016... Q: What do you say in response to Nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz’s comments on Bloomberg [television], where he called Apple’s profit reporting in Ireland a “fraud”? Tim Cooks answer: I did…
Who committed the "fraud"? Apple, the Irish government, or both?
The fraud is that there are many who feel no company should be able to shop around for a better tax deal and no country should be allowed to give them.
This isn't about fairness but instead so that other countries don't have to correct their spending issues and can inflict the same pain on their contemporaries.
Even in the US there are politicians who want to have all states implement similar taxation rules or penalize those who move one state to live in another. The absurdity of taxation rules never ceases to amaze me, let alone the punitive actions of politicians who go after people and groups who don't adhere to their rules.
Worse, the EU tends to think of beneficial tax polices to people and corporations as subsidies where in the US the government calls it a tax expenditure.
People need to wake up. Taxation view points are closely paralleled to privacy issues. Politicians and many left leaning groups think that all money belongs to government as do most rights. The same goes for privacy rules, in that many think you should have protection only from other individuals and private groups by government does not have to grant the same and in fact can decide how much you should keep.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Irish government were doing their job very well. It just so happens that their job, as they understand it, is attracting multinational corporations by having much lower taxes than their neighbours.
Lower taxes for specific companies is the issue though, not lower tax rates across the board.
Two questions:
1. How do they target these companies? 2. Is this the issue then? If it was for all the companies, with no exceptions, would that be allowed?
I'm seriously asking in the hope to get a better understanding, because right now, the way I see it is: As long as they are not breaking any laws, it's their "right" to use any loophole there is, to minimize their taxes (or maximize their profit, depends how you look at it). Is it ethical? Of course not, I'm not arguing about that.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
What actually happened between IE and AAPL is on the verge of extortion and bribery - the only difference is not on personal level but on Gov vs Bus. We should heavily penalise this, as AAPL literally stole money from both US and EU people. Because of this arrangement: Apple paid less taxes in US, hence US people have worse roads, healthcare etc. To the same in EU (but here by bad IE decision). Money taken is on AAPL…
Companies make deals with governments __all the time__ for tax breaks and government subsidies. Governments want jobs and investment, companies want the best deals they can get. This is NOT extortion or bribery, just everyday business. It happens every single day even between US states, not to mention nation-states. Business is competitive and that's a good thing. AAPL in this case has deferred taxes on profits with…
Yes, it happens very often in EU countries too, and because of that the EU has very strict rules what sort of help is allowed, to stop countries undercutting each other and racing to the bottom.