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Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

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Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#141

Post by belorn »

satysin wrote: post #114

I am not too sure how I feel about this. On the one hand I do think Apple (and many other companies) should pay more taxes. However on the other hand Ireland enticed many big companies to their country on the promise of lower tax. You can't blame Apple for taking advantage of such an offer. They followed the letter of the [Irish] law as far as I can tell (unless someone can correct me?). I think this could end up bei…

If you make a deal with a government to pay 0.005% taxes where all other corporations in the same country pays 12.5%, you might want to suspect that something is wrong. Even if you are not paying bribes, it does not pass the smell test.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#142

Post by phab »

zigzigzag wrote: post #116
friendzis wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things to keep in mind: * Tax laws are (not theoretically) changed retroactively, i.e. even if no taxes were due at the time of filling, that may change. * Law interpretation and/or leading acts may change (again retroactively), i.e. taxable amount, various exemptions, etc.. Some countries may pat you on the back for finding loopholes in the law while other may simply order one to pay hopefully without…

It is well understood that retroactive changes to the law are one of the worst things a legal system can do, which is why so many constitutions ban it and why other countries (like the UK) have a strong convention not to do it. The US Constitution bans them explicitly. Yes, of course countries routinely do bad things and ignore convention and constitutional principles, but that doesn't make it suddenly OK. The low ra…

You have missed the point - this is about different companies within one state being charged different rates of corporation tax, not different states across the EU charging different rates of tax.

> if the EU successfully forces countries to pick a single corporation tax rate across the bloc

The EU is forcing no such thing. It is forcing countries within the bloc to not give any one company special treatment. The distinction is critical.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#143

Post by edwinjm »

gambiting wrote: post #61
Oletros wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why they won't collect all the due taxes?

Imagine you had an agreement with your local tax authority that they agree for you to pay X in taxes. Then few years later tell you that actually, they were wrong and you have to pay more - you would fight this for as long as possible, wouldn't you?

Not if you knew the deal was sketchy from the start. What's likely the case here.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#144

Post by chronid »

Oletros wrote: post #39
chronid wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will not collect back 100% anyway, maybe maybe 1/3 of the total amount.

Why they won't collect all the due taxes?

Heavy discounts are usually given for this kind of issues by fiscal authorities, unless there is proof (beyond doubt) there was unlawful intent to not pay those taxes.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#145

Post by galtwho »

rdslw wrote: post #37
eru wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.

What actually happened between IE and AAPL is on the verge of extortion and bribery - the only difference is not on personal level but on Gov vs Bus. We should heavily penalise this, as AAPL literally stole money from both US and EU people. Because of this arrangement: Apple paid less taxes in US, hence US people have worse roads, healthcare etc. To the same in EU (but here by bad IE decision). Money taken is on AAPL…

>> as AAPL literally stole money from both US and EU people

Well you have US Govt now arguing on behalf of Apple, which suggests that US people were not going to be the losers.

The losers are people of other countries where Apple and other MNC's don't pay their fair share of taxes.

The plan is to hoard this money in low tax jurisdictions and I guess for 2 purposes 1. wait for a lower tax rate amnesty to be offered in US 2. use cash hoard to undertake overseas acquisitions to grow the US Company and by extension US influence.

Apple finds it better to take loans out in US for its cash needs there and write them off against US incomes inspite of sitting on more than 100b in cash reserves.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#146

Post by AJRF »

eru wrote: post #13
rdslw wrote: post #4

Good. Read how Tim Cook publicly considers Nobel economist Joeseph Stiglitz as a one who do not know what he (Stiglitz) is talking about. Eye opening. Excerpts from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/wp/2016/08/13/2016... Q: What do you say in response to Nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz’s comments on Bloomberg [television], where he called Apple’s profit reporting in Ireland a “fraud”? Tim Cooks answer: I did…

Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.

> In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.

These companies buy up 1 person offices to use as PO Boxes. Land isn't representative of profits flowing through a place.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#147

Post by dogma1138 »

flexie wrote: post #104
eru wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.

Yes, it is Apple's problem and no, Apple is not a victim in this thing. The EU treaty is Irish law as well and lawyers from all over the union (myself included) have been looking on at this blatant violation of EU rules for years wondering how long multinational companies would be able to keep the schemes alive. The Irish people have voted for politicians who adopted the EU treaty which bans subsidies to large corpor…

>The Irish people benefits when subsidies to French, British or German corporations are curbed.

Are you serious? Subsidies to German and French corporations were not curbed they were replaced by the ludicrous loans that the Germans and the French give out to the "poorer" and "less industrious" EU member states so they in term can go around and buy German goodies.

And when this Ponzi scheme blows up because of a financial crisis they force you to take on even more loans to pay back the debt you own all while preventing you from writing off debt or going bankrupt with threats of shutting off your banks because you do not control your own currency.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#148

Post by shaqbert »

shaqbert wrote: post #118

What Apple, Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and most other big US company do is the so called "double Irish"[1]. Essentially is a clever way of using two quirks of some EU countries loopholes in tax laws, from treating IP licensing fees (of course the brand and intellectual IP is owned by a British virgin island tax haven, where else could this stuff be created/invented), and the net result is that Apple et al end up payi…

How to counter this:

Just regulated the transfer of IP rights. If you sell say a patent portfolio for $50m to your British Virgin Island subsidiary, and then make $20bn in profits in the decade thereafter on that BVI sub, it appears the IP transfer was waaaaay below market value. And should retroactively be taxed in the US where we engineers had developed that stuff in the first place.

Problem solved. US tax base restored. Government deficit fixed.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#149

Post by tonicoto »

efdee wrote: post #97
tonicoto wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not fined, they are being told to pay what they owe.

Imagine your country offers a tax refund for installing solar panels. Because of this, you decide to buy and install solar panels. Lateron, it is decided that your country shouldn't have offered this refund for this or that reason. Would you feel that it is fair that you have to pay up, instead of the institution that wrongfully offered you tax refunds?

That's a bad argument because:

1) Apple would have sold their stuff in Europe whether they had to pay full taxes or not, they only wanted a discount. I would probably not pay for the solar panels because I can't afford them.

2) Solar panels are very expensive and would make a huge dent in my balance. That's not the case for Apple.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#150

Post by andmarios »

tinkerrr wrote: post #132
andmarios wrote: post #42

In 2014 Apple's effective tax rate was 0.005%. That is 5 cents for every $1000 in profits. Even a patent troll could do better than Ireland...

Why this blatant falsification of facts? In 2014, Apple's earnings before interest and taxes was $53,483,000 and the income tax expense was $13,973,000. That's 26.12% effective tax rate. All data from Yahoo! Finance: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AAPL/financials?p=AAPL . It's a similar tax rate in other years too.

Did you read the article? The numbers I wrote are straight from the European Commission. As a European Union citizen I trust EC's findings more than yahoo.

Also, do you really think that Apple made only 50 million in Europe in 2014? What is it? A startup?

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