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Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

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Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#91

Post by themartorana »

pfortuny wrote: post #64
threeseed wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is NOT a fraud and any characterisation of it being so is ridiculous and wrong. Apple followed the law. End of story. The issue is that the EU found that the law was illegal under state aid rules.

Well the problem is that the EU has a legal structure and if you want to do business in IE then you have to abide by EU's rules. So it is AAPL's lawyers' fault, in the end. Hence, AAPL's. This is another issue why I am strongly against the EU. You can find out that a country is behaving illegally when WRITING ITS OWN LAWS... So you cannot even be sure to be abiding by the law if you obey a country's laws.

Yeah, which is why I'm so surprised people are surprised about Brexit. It wasn't some full-on racist rant. Many people just wanted sovereignty for real, including a large number of Labor voters who voted quietly, fearing retaliation.

When you can't write your own laws, and you don't get to elect who does, you're not really sovereign.

http://www.newsweek.com/brexit-eu-leave-democracy-immigratio...

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#92

Post by efdee »

sosull wrote: post #82
denzil_correa wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't Ireland also take the blame here? If not, this sets a dangerous precedent for future governments who can sek companies to set shop but then back out once courts rule against. I mean, Ireland here comes out with no culpability.

To whom should a country and its taxpayers be culpable in this situation? What would be the appropriate form of punishment?

To the European Union, I would think. Other European countries which are abiding to the rules are losing companies to those who countries offer unfair tax benefits.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#93

Post by tribaal »

calg wrote: post #67
rdslw wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What actually happened between IE and AAPL is on the verge of extortion and bribery - the only difference is not on personal level but on Gov vs Bus. We should heavily penalise this, as AAPL literally stole money from both US and EU people. Because of this arrangement: Apple paid less taxes in US, hence US people have worse roads, healthcare etc. To the same in EU (but here by bad IE decision). Money taken is on AAPL…

Companies make deals with governments __all the time__ for tax breaks and government subsidies. Governments want jobs and investment, companies want the best deals they can get. This is NOT extortion or bribery, just everyday business. It happens every single day even between US states, not to mention nation-states. Business is competitive and that's a good thing. AAPL in this case has deferred taxes on profits with…

While you might be right in the US (I don't know), it is illegal to have fiscal deals with the government in the EU, which is the very ground for the court action in the first place.

From my perspective (as a EU citizen), it is the right thing to do (no allowing special deals). How is that a fair landscape for competition? It's not. If you want to do business in the EU, you have to obey EU laws, just like everybody else.

Furthermore, government officials agreeing to tax cuts should be tried for abuse of public assets, in my opinion. That's however a separate issue in this case, Apple does no obey EU law no matter how guilty politicians are.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#94

Post by notahacker »

eru wrote: post #34
marcospri wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Pub next door pays a higher effective tax

They sell alcohol after all. But fair point. And because the bigger players who can hire expensive accountants can always mask their profits, we shouldn't tax profits. It's too malleable. Hey, even VAT is a better tax.

The bigger players then avoid even more tax without the expensive accountants, with the burden falling upon everybody else, not least private companies whose owners are based locally and rely on taxable dividends for a living.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#95

Post by zigzigzag »

icebraining wrote: post #71
threeseed wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to Apple there wasn't a clear precedent set before this. There definitely is now though and you can be sure legal teams around the world will be advising senior leadership teams to rearrange their corporate structures accordingly.

Fiscal State Aid was declared illegal almost two decades ago; Apple was trying to walk a fine line here.

But low tax rates are not "state aid", "aid" is an English word meaning giving something to somebody. "Tax" means the opposite: taking it away.

The EU Commission is now engaged in a rather grotesque power grab in which despite having no mandate to interfere with member tax policies they are attempting to gain control anyway, without treaty change, by redefining low tax rates as a kind of subsidy.

There is no real precedent for this kind of legal abuse - to claim Apple should have anticipated it is absurd.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#96

Post by zigzigzag »

icebraining wrote: post #65
eru wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unjust_enrichment Having to pay back the taxes that were due is not a punishment, it's simply restitution.

But no taxes were due, according to the tax collectors themselves.

Meanwhile the EU is not a tax collection body, it does not set tax policy and it does not issue tax rulings. It has no power to do this and I'm unaware of any countries that want it to have this power.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#97

Post by efdee »

tonicoto wrote: post #55
efdee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't fully understand is why Apple is fined instead of Ireland. Edit: Maybe "fined" is not the correct term for this, but my understanding is that Ireland had granted Apple tax benefits which they shouldn't have granted. Isn't Ireland in the wrong here, rather than Apple?

They are not fined, they are being told to pay what they owe.

Imagine your country offers a tax refund for installing solar panels. Because of this, you decide to buy and install solar panels. Lateron, it is decided that your country shouldn't have offered this refund for this or that reason.

Would you feel that it is fair that you have to pay up, instead of the institution that wrongfully offered you tax refunds?

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#99

Post by threeseed »

rjtavares wrote: post #84
calg wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies make deals with governments __all the time__ for tax breaks and government subsidies. Governments want jobs and investment, companies want the best deals they can get. This is NOT extortion or bribery, just everyday business. It happens every single day even between US states, not to mention nation-states. Business is competitive and that's a good thing. AAPL in this case has deferred taxes on profits with…

> Companies make deals with governments __all the time__ for tax breaks and government subsidies. Governments want jobs and investment, companies want the best deals they can get. And it's honestly one of the bigger problems of the world today. There was a Planet Money episode where they presented the data from jobs "created" in Kansas and Missouri through tax breaks. It was something like: Kansas stole 5000 jobs fro…

It is a problem but unfortunately not a solvable one.

It's the equivalent of paying everyone the same wage. Countries are going to aggressively compete for talent just like companies do. And whether it's offering them different tax rates, amending employment laws, building infrastructure for them etc countries are going to bend over backwards.

Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple

#100

Post by throwanem »

collyw wrote: post #48
onion2k wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? Yes. To the tune of €13bn. At the scale Apple operates their legal team should be considering whether the deals they negotiate are legal in all the applicable jurisdictions, not just the local one. The Irish government should also have done a better job, so part of the blame lies with them, but that doesn't free Apple of all responsibility. In any cas…

If the owners aren't paying for it, then it should go to the public domain. The idea of someone "owning" land seems pretty stupid to me.

When advancing wildly heterodox ideas, one is well advised to be prepared to defend them. Do so well, and you may make your audience thoughtful; do so poorly or not at all, and you only make them annoyed.
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