So Ireland, the tech hub that would replace London, isn't going anymore?
Suspect Dublin will do quite well in the fintech sector if Brexit means passporting agreements are difficult to arrange for London based startups...
Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
81–90 of 436 posts
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
No fine for Apple. Apple can almost look entirely innocent on this, they asked Ireland to look at how they've structured their tax affairs knowing full well what impact this would have on their tax bill. However Ireland agreed to it, even though it shouldn't have. The EU has now stepped in and clarified that Ireland should not have allowed this in the first place.
Shouldn't Ireland also take the blame here? If not, this sets a dangerous precedent for future governments who can sek companies to set shop but then back out once courts rule against. I mean, Ireland here comes out with no culpability.
To whom should a country and its taxpayers be culpable in this situation? What would be the appropriate form of punishment?
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#83Okay, the EC is wrong in that lower tax burdens are a form of state aid. Higher corporate taxes also tend to cause all sorts of new ways to lower tax burdens which can mean even less tax revenue, let alone simply up and moving to a more tax friendly environment. The EU needs to worry about Africa soon scarfing up companies looking for a way out.
Then last of all, they are fooling themselves if they don't think EU based companies aren't receiving similar deals. This seems concentrated only on US based companies for the time being.
Finally consider this, countries which lowered their corporate rates found increases in wages and taxes. This includes Canada and Japan
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
What actually happened between IE and AAPL is on the verge of extortion and bribery - the only difference is not on personal level but on Gov vs Bus. We should heavily penalise this, as AAPL literally stole money from both US and EU people. Because of this arrangement: Apple paid less taxes in US, hence US people have worse roads, healthcare etc. To the same in EU (but here by bad IE decision). Money taken is on AAPL…
Companies make deals with governments __all the time__ for tax breaks and government subsidies. Governments want jobs and investment, companies want the best deals they can get. This is NOT extortion or bribery, just everyday business. It happens every single day even between US states, not to mention nation-states. Business is competitive and that's a good thing. AAPL in this case has deferred taxes on profits with…
> Companies make deals with governments __all the time__ for tax breaks and government subsidies. Governments want jobs and investment, companies want the best deals they can get.
And it's honestly one of the bigger problems of the world today. There was a Planet Money episode where they presented the data from jobs "created" in Kansas and Missouri through tax breaks. It was something like: Kansas stole 5000 jobs from Missouri through relocation of offices in Kansas City, and Missouri stole 4000 jobs from Kansas the same way. So millions offered to companies to get a net benefit of basically zero.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apple paid taxes according to Irish laws. Is it Apple's problem that Irish law disagrees with EC agreements? (Seems to be Ireland's problem.) If people want companies to pay certain taxes, they should vote for politicians that pass laws that require companies to pay those taxes.. In any case, we should be taxing land value. That's harder to avoid: you can't hide land.
What actually happened between IE and AAPL is on the verge of extortion and bribery - the only difference is not on personal level but on Gov vs Bus. We should heavily penalise this, as AAPL literally stole money from both US and EU people. Because of this arrangement: Apple paid less taxes in US, hence US people have worse roads, healthcare etc. To the same in EU (but here by bad IE decision). Money taken is on AAPL…
Hollywood interests managed to get employment law changed in New Zealand. The law. They didn't even remotely try to hide who was doing it, either. The sad truth is, it probably actually is good for our economy.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
To be fair to Apple there wasn't a clear precedent set before this. There definitely is now though and you can be sure legal teams around the world will be advising senior leadership teams to rearrange their corporate structures accordingly.
Fiscal State Aid was declared illegal almost two decades ago; Apple was trying to walk a fine line here.
The whole situation is a fine line. Look at one of the criteria that Ireland ran afoul of: "the basis of profit determination for companies in a multinational group departs from internationally accepted rules"
Which of course is amusing because there aren't really any internationally accepted rules. Companies like Apple e.g. Ikea, Coke, Google etc all do this and many countries allow it in particular the US.
I think it's fantastic that this precedent has been set. But it is a precedent none the less.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Shouldn't Ireland also take the blame here? If not, this sets a dangerous precedent for future governments who can sek companies to set shop but then back out once courts rule against. I mean, Ireland here comes out with no culpability.
To whom should a country and its taxpayers be culpable in this situation? What would be the appropriate form of punishment?
WHAT the punishment would be could be a matter of discussion. My point was there SHOULD be some punishment. I can't imagine a case where Ireland walks out of this unscathed.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is NOT a fraud and any characterisation of it being so is ridiculous and wrong. Apple followed the law. End of story. The issue is that the EU found that the law was illegal under state aid rules.
Well the problem is that the EU has a legal structure and if you want to do business in IE then you have to abide by EU's rules. So it is AAPL's lawyers' fault, in the end. Hence, AAPL's. This is another issue why I am strongly against the EU. You can find out that a country is behaving illegally when WRITING ITS OWN LAWS... So you cannot even be sure to be abiding by the law if you obey a country's laws.
What is in the interest of the German economy seems to be what determines EU and ECB actions, whether it's setting interest rates, applying rules or deciding what 'deals' to investigate.
The EU, did it go hard after VW? But when it comes to the small fry, rules is rules.
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#89Good. Read how Tim Cook publicly considers Nobel economist Joeseph Stiglitz as a one who do not know what he (Stiglitz) is talking about. Eye opening. Excerpts from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/business/wp/2016/08/13/2016... Q: What do you say in response to Nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz’s comments on Bloomberg [television], where he called Apple’s profit reporting in Ireland a “fraud”? Tim Cooks answer: I did…
Who committed the "fraud"? Apple, the Irish government, or both?
Re: Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13B to Apple
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
No fine for Apple. Apple can almost look entirely innocent on this, they asked Ireland to look at how they've structured their tax affairs knowing full well what impact this would have on their tax bill. However Ireland agreed to it, even though it shouldn't have. The EU has now stepped in and clarified that Ireland should not have allowed this in the first place.
Shouldn't Ireland also take the blame here? If not, this sets a dangerous precedent for future governments who can sek companies to set shop but then back out once courts rule against. I mean, Ireland here comes out with no culpability.
Yes, the way I imagine most people will take this story is that Apple avoided taxes but really Ireland allowed them to contrive a tax structure that resulted in a lower tax bill. Apple must have known this would happen some day, I'd imagine they would have taken advice on it at the time and someone somewhere calculated that even if this happened, it was still worthwhile. So Apple isn't completely innocent but it's really Ireland at fault here.
There is no direct impact for Ireland e.g. a fine but it will create uncertainty for others already operating in Ireland and those considering investment. This uncertainty can be very bad for Ireland for years to come, so there will almost certainly be a penalty, albeit an indirect one.