Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Are PhD Students Irrational?

lareviewofbooks.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 74 posts

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#41

Post by igravious »

cperciva wrote: post #28
sjg007 wrote: post #22

A PhD is a great way to immigrate and this drives down PhD stipends. A PhD is a great way to continue learning.. And good for the overall economy because companies rely on math, science and engineering to produce products.

A PhD at a good institution is also a great way to open doors which would otherwise remain closed. I found that opening emails with "I'm a DPhil student at the Oxford University Computing Lab and" resulted in a dramatic increase in how helpful people would be.

That's probably the Oxford part doing the trick, not the DPhil part ;-) I am only half-joking.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#43

Post by ikeyany »

nevdka wrote: post #40
nickff wrote: post #4

Should universities not be held accountable for the fraud that they have perpetrated on their students? The tobacco companies were taken to court because their products had long-term consequences which they persistently minimized, while continuing to push product; it seems universities have done the same. If anything, the universities have better, clearer data than the tobacco companies, and the universities have far…

The observable consequences of PhDs are higher salaries and lower unemployment than Masters, Bachelors or lower [0]. PhD students also spend 'the best years of their lives' working deeply on something they care about. Where's the fraud? [0] http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

I'm guessing the depressing reality that you're spending those years broke, stressed out, and doing unglamorous work compared to your peers who went for greener pastures.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#44

Post by cperciva »

igravious wrote: post #41
cperciva wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A PhD at a good institution is also a great way to open doors which would otherwise remain closed. I found that opening emails with "I'm a DPhil student at the Oxford University Computing Lab and" resulted in a dramatic increase in how helpful people would be.

That's probably the Oxford part doing the trick, not the DPhil part ;-) I am only half-joking.

I did say "at a good institution". ;-)

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#45

Post by visarga »

cstrahan wrote: post #23
jdoliner wrote: post #10

From my reading it seems like the crux of the argument is this: > We’ve presupposed a scenario in which there really is a massive oversupply of PhDs, and thus PhD students must be irrational for treading into an oversupplied labor market. But that’s simply not true. PhD “oversupply” is just a euphemistic way of talking about the fact that colleges and universities haven’t met student-generated demand with a commensur…

Normally I'd agree. Especially if we're assuming purely selfish pursuits ("I want to fuck around in academia forever and get paid, supply/demand be damned!"). However, if I see it through the lense of someone who desperately wants to move the world forward -- and at any personal cost -- then I start to entertain the thought that, maybe, it's unfortunate that that some can't find jobs, and they're deserving of my symp…

> if I see it through the lense of someone who desperately wants to move the world forward and at any personal cost then I start to entertain the thought that, maybe, it's unfortunate that that some can't find jobs, and they're deserving of my sympathy

Maybe it would work if PHDs benefited from some kind of basic income, as long as they dedicate their life to research or teaching. Tenure should not be the only way to achieve the basic necessities for researchers. In the long run society benefits from all the fundamental research being done, which would be difficult to sponsor in the private domain, where immediate profits are most valued.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#46

Post by Futurebot »

If you enjoyed this piece, you should read "Planet Loser":

"If you actually want to know why people persist in going to grad school, or trying to be screenwriters or musicians or professional athletes or actors — or, if we’re getting really real about it, journalists and writers, the kind that write for The Atlantic — it’s because our culture insists relentlessly that certain kinds of work have intellectual and aesthetic value, that they are a way to be a Somebody, and also that you never, ever give up on your dreams. There is no message that we deliver to children and adolescents more relentlessly than that they should pursue their dreams with manic focus and unflagging persistence, no matter how hard and often they fail, and that they will be assured of eventual victory. Never, never, never give up. Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t, you’re right! If you believe it, you can achieve it. Go to a middle school sometime. Look at the posters on the wall. It’s like a one-party state, propaganda of the most ubiquitous and intense variety. When I was a long-term sub at my local junior high I was amazed; it was like some sort of totalitarian reeducation camp, with the purpose being to indoctrinate in all who passed through the doors that failure stems always and only from a lack of nerve."

http://fredrikdeboer.com/2016/04/24/planet-loser/

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#47

Post by j7ake »

Since we are on HN, how does this irrationally differ from the hordes of people going into start ups hoping they will be the next AirBnB?

I would be interested in comparing the chances of a graduate student becoming a tenured professor versus a fresh grad starting a start up that becomes a unicorn.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#49

Post by wfo »

ikeyany wrote: post #43
nevdka wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The observable consequences of PhDs are higher salaries and lower unemployment than Masters, Bachelors or lower [0]. PhD students also spend 'the best years of their lives' working deeply on something they care about. Where's the fraud? [0] http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

I'm guessing the depressing reality that you're spending those years broke, stressed out, and doing unglamorous work compared to your peers who went for greener pastures.

You don't get to tell the world what they are allowed to find important or valuable.

Re: Are PhD Students Irrational?

#50

Post by Chinjut »

Futurebot wrote: post #46

If you enjoyed this piece, you should read "Planet Loser": "If you actually want to know why people persist in going to grad school, or trying to be screenwriters or musicians or professional athletes or actors — or, if we’re getting really real about it, journalists and writers, the kind that write for The Atlantic — it’s because our culture insists relentlessly that certain kinds of work have intellectual and aesth…

Yes! This is the best, most on-the-mark account of the matter I've ever read. (Granted, I've read it before, but I'll say it again).

Amazing how few people writing about the issue see, or at least note, this basic insight.

Post reply on HN